Conversation with esw07@conference.ecotroph.net at Thu 01 Nov 2007 03:33:51 AM EDT on richard.barnes@gmail.com/Home (jabber)

(03:33:52 AM) richard.barnes entered the room.
(03:33:52 AM) SDO Emergency Services Workshop 2007
(03:33:52 AM) HannesTschofenig has set the topic to: 3rd Emergency Services Workshop
(03:33:59 AM) richard.barnes: Good morning!
(03:34:22 AM) richard.barnes: We're starting the morning with an automated presentation from Manfred Arndt on LLDP-MED
(03:35:12 AM) richard.barnes: http://www.tschofenig.com/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/ESW07_-_IEEE_LLDP_with_Audio.zip
(03:35:19 AM) richard.barnes: Currently on slide 3
(03:36:20 AM) richard.barnes: (I'm not going to record any of the audio commentary in the presentation)
(03:36:27 AM) richard.barnes: (unless anyone objects)
(03:36:46 AM) richard.barnes: (I'll just record questions / discussion)
(03:54:21 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Does anyone know the status of 802.1AB?
(03:55:13 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Know that LLDP-MED is moving to using unicast addresses, for the reasons Manfred specified
(03:57:01 AM) richard.barnes: McCann: Update on LLDP-MED as it relates to 802.1AB
(03:57:06 AM) richard.barnes: Simply, the two have diverged
(03:57:30 AM) richard.barnes: 11v currently supports location both in the terminal and the access point
(03:57:33 AM) richard.barnes: supports LbyR
(03:58:11 AM) richard.barnes: However, this work was being done in parallel with LLDP, prior to LLDP-MED
(03:58:25 AM) richard.barnes: So we have two competing location solutions within 802.11
(03:58:36 AM) richard.barnes: (no, i meant "within 802")
(03:58:44 AM) richard.barnes: LLDP for wired, 11v for wireless
(03:59:08 AM) richard.barnes: McCann et al. will try to start some ES discussions at the upcoming 802 meeting
(03:59:21 AM) richard.barnes: Looks like it's essential to have some mechanism to support LLDP-MED
(03:59:37 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Do you have a feel for what's going to happen to the "MED"?
(04:00:03 AM) richard.barnes: (since it's a TIA thing, TR41.4)
(04:00:31 AM) richard.barnes: Is 802 going to pick up that work?
(04:00:49 AM) richard.barnes: McCann: Think that's one of Manfred's goals, to bring that back into 802.1
(04:01:30 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Believe that 802.1 will need to liaise with IETF to make sure we get the MED stuff right
(04:01:59 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Several people in the IETF who would like to help with that
(04:05:34 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Hannu Hietalahti on 3GPP IMS emergency calling
(04:05:59 AM) richard.barnes: A lot of this is not finalized in R7, which means we can still affect the direction
(04:06:28 AM) richard.barnes: (no slides available)
(04:06:45 AM) richard.barnes: These slides are also out of date - the SA2 meeting last week created some news
(04:07:16 AM) richard.barnes: Rel-7 was frozen in June 2007
(04:07:34 AM) richard.barnes: ... but changes are still possible (corrections / serious problems)
(04:07:57 AM) richard.barnes: New functionality will have to go into Rel-8
(04:09:39 AM) richard.barnes: Rel-8 also includes some changes to better align with IETF
(04:09:58 AM) richard.barnes: USIM-less calls are allowed, cause trouble for PSAPs
(04:11:39 AM) richard.barnes: Finnish numbers on false calls are lower than elsewhere - ~20%
(04:11:57 AM) richard.barnes: 12% unintended, 4% silent, 4% malicious
(04:12:27 AM) richard.barnes: Are we risking more lives by overloading PSAPs than we would save by allowing the exceptions at emergency call setup?
(04:12:53 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: Emergency calls without USIM is "mandatory due to regulatory reasons"? Was this just a US thing?
(04:13:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Not just US, but don't have a reference
(04:13:20 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: Like I've said, I think the issue in the US was a misinterpretation
(04:13:39 AM) richard.barnes: At this point in time, it's more of a psychological/political issue
(04:13:59 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Welcome this comment; we should check
(04:14:58 AM) richard.barnes: ???: It's a very national discussion, and there are oppositions among countries
(04:15:19 AM) richard.barnes: E.g., NL claims that answering USIM-less calls saves a lot of lives
(04:16:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: The stats are an average, and there is a lot of regional variation
(04:16:15 AM) richard.barnes: Rel 8 has several impacts on emergency calls
(04:16:35 AM) richard.barnes: SAE (System Architecture Evolution) work is going to an IP core
(04:16:52 AM) richard.barnes: Adding non-3GPP access technologies
(04:17:59 AM) richard.barnes: Defining SAE and GPRS access-specific procedures for ECS (e.g., detection and priority)
(04:18:45 AM) richard.barnes: Dealing with transfers between 3GPP/non3GPP and PS/CS domains
(04:19:19 AM) richard.barnes: Priority service in Rel-8 is targeted to calls by specific users with authority
(04:19:58 AM) richard.barnes: Study item on IETF alignment
(04:20:30 AM) richard.barnes: De-couple access network service from IMS network service
(04:21:25 AM) JamesWinterbottom entered the room.
(04:22:01 AM) richard.barnes: Any normative changes to specifications will require a 3GPP work item
(04:22:22 AM) richard.barnes: Backwards compatibility with Rel-7 is requried
(04:22:41 AM) jchiaramonte: Presentation has been posted: http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/3GPP_IMS_emergency_call_status_update.ppt
(04:23:33 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: What are HPLMN and VPLMN?
(04:23:56 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Packet networks
(04:24:12 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Is there still some assumption that you've got a roaming agreement, even when you're decoupled?
(04:24:24 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Intention of this work is to break that.
(04:25:06 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: I have been inquiring at the IETF management level as to how we can get the 3GPP and IETF ECS work better aligned
(04:25:14 AM) richard.barnes: They just said "now is the time!"
(04:25:43 AM) richard.barnes: There are folks in the IETF who are very eager to get together with their counterparts in the 3GPP
(04:26:35 AM) richard.barnes: Both: Action to figure out who the relevant players are on both sides
(04:27:48 AM) richard.barnes: McCann: Could you keep IEEE in the loop about that? Not necessarily to participate, just to be aware
(04:28:32 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: We've been having IETF-3GPP calls for a while, but this is more of a low-level "work thing"
(04:29:18 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu:
(04:29:28 AM) richard.barnes: SA3 is working security
(04:29:39 AM) richard.barnes: user plane encryption ends at eNB
(04:29:47 AM) richard.barnes: (eNB = base station)
(04:30:17 AM) richard.barnes: SIM access is prohibited in LTE (long term evolution?)
(04:30:26 AM) richard.barnes: We'll see if that actually happens
(04:31:38 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: What does MME stand for? Hannu: Don't know!
(04:32:00 AM) richard.barnes: It's the signaling that needs to selects the gateways, finds the home network, does hand-over, etc
(04:32:20 AM) richard.barnes: authentication is under the control of the MME, but it doesn't do all of it
(04:32:51 AM) richard.barnes: Milan: MME = Mobility Management Entity
(04:33:02 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Had to call it something
(04:33:10 AM) richard.barnes: (now on slide 11)
(04:34:15 AM) richard.barnes: Legal intercept in MME and serving gateway
(04:35:56 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 12)
(04:37:15 AM) richard.barnes: non-3GPP access (23.402 / 4.2) includes a concept of trusted vs untrusted networks
(04:37:38 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 13)
(04:38:11 AM) richard.barnes: Common IMS is an effort to harmonize lots of different organizations' IMS
(04:39:49 AM) richard.barnes: Still working scope a little bit, but it's clear that emergency calling is in scope
(04:39:59 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Also looking at merging with ATIS VTSC?
(04:40:14 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: ATIS guys are not involved, not thrilled
(04:40:55 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: What's surprising is that ATIS is a 3GPP Organizational Partner, which means that they agreed to this plan
(04:41:15 AM) richard.barnes: Hopefully we can create a critical mass in 3GPP so that it doesn't make sense for people to diverg
(04:42:17 AM) richard.barnes: TISPAN IMS being merged into Rel-8 TSs and TRs
(04:43:19 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 14
(04:43:43 AM) richard.barnes: Emergency calls are in the highlighted box at the top
(04:43:47 AM) richard.barnes: That's all from Hannu
(05:03:05 AM) richard.barnes: (took a few minutes break)
(05:03:08 AM) richard.barnes: (back now)
(05:03:55 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Leopold Murhammer on ETSI EMTEL
(05:04:32 AM) richard.barnes: (no slides yet)
(05:04:57 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL started as an ad-hoc coordination group
(05:05:08 AM) richard.barnes: Main responsibilities of EMTEL:
(05:05:24 AM) richard.barnes: Coordinating requirements, disseminating to SDOs
(05:05:37 AM) richard.barnes: Coordinating ESTI positions on EMTEL issues
(05:06:07 AM) richard.barnes: Requirements are cit-auth, auth-auth, auth-cit, cit-cit (the usual cases)
(05:07:05 AM) richard.barnes: Agnostic with respect to fixed/mobile
(05:07:15 AM) richard.barnes: and private/public
(05:08:48 AM) richard.barnes: Several interfaces involved in emergency communications
(05:10:11 AM) richard.barnes: Requirements flow: EGEA (expert group) (operational) --> EMTEL (functional) --> SDOs (standards)
(05:12:31 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL covers not just emergency calling, but more broadly, before, during, and after an emergency
(05:14:53 AM) richard.barnes: currently working on PATS regulatory issues and TETRA
(05:15:36 AM) richard.barnes: Current work on VoIP - TR 102 476 - targeted for Feb 2008
(05:16:34 AM) richard.barnes: Per Palm is rapporteur for that document
(05:16:58 AM) richard.barnes: Palm: At the next meeting, I hope we will finish the document
(05:17:22 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: It's not available at the moment
(05:17:32 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: It will be out soon
(05:17:59 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Is there a plan to send it out for review?
(05:18:45 AM) richard.barnes: Palm: The problem we have is that there's a gap between how the SDOs think and how the PSAPs think
(05:18:56 AM) richard.barnes: So we started to ask "what is it that we need"
(05:19:28 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL effort is somewhere in between EGEA and what we're doing here
(05:19:54 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: Usually documents are sent out to other organizations for comment
(05:21:04 AM) richard.barnes: ???: Question is "what do we need?" and "is it available?". EMTEL is about halfway in between.
(05:22:33 AM) richard.barnes: Price: As technical people, we are sometime inclined to overshoot what our users want
(05:22:53 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL is a good place for users and technical people to come together
(05:23:09 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Sounds like this group is not too different from NENA
(05:23:35 AM) richard.barnes: Could NENA be on the distribution list when that document comes around for comment?
(05:24:22 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: We have been trying to get you guys to work on this stuff in a way that lets you decide what the standards are before you know what you need.
(05:24:33 AM) richard.barnes: You've pretty much missed that boat, it's been done without your input
(05:25:17 AM) richard.barnes: The problem is that devices and services are being created faster than we can figure out how to integrate them into ES systems
(05:25:24 AM) richard.barnes: The users don't care
(05:25:40 AM) richard.barnes: e.g., why can't a handicapped user send text to a PSAP?
(05:26:00 AM) richard.barnes: The rate of change is increasing, the time frame is going down, so we have to move faster
(05:26:39 AM) richard.barnes: On the other hand, it's very clear that our current systems don't work
(05:27:02 AM) richard.barnes: In New Orleans, the phone system failed, the Internet didn't, and all the responders were on the phone
(05:27:17 AM) richard.barnes: We need to push the responders -- they have to get into these new technologies because they work better
(05:27:32 AM) richard.barnes: we can better serve our citizens and visitors (probably at lower cost)
(05:27:45 AM) richard.barnes: The technology guys are driving it, that's just the reality
(05:27:59 AM) richard.barnes: ???: I partly agree, not totally
(05:28:30 AM) richard.barnes: You're right that development is going very fast (I'm in NENA as well)
(05:28:49 AM) richard.barnes: The challenge is that you get the users that are really keen on this; what do you do about the rest?
(05:29:01 AM) richard.barnes: It's not only the technology that's changing, it's the medicine as well
(05:29:51 AM) richard.barnes: We can make technology that's useless to responders once it's deployed
(05:30:22 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: From a pragmatic point of view, IETF has been well-coordinated with NENA because of an overlap in people, not so for ETSI
(05:30:41 AM) richard.barnes: Maybe we can do something at the next IETF?
(05:30:54 AM) richard.barnes: Solicit some quick feedback before we finish our docs?
(05:31:01 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: It's never too late for feedback!
(05:31:36 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: This document will be passed around via the liaison mechanism
(05:32:04 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI is also involved in some HENs (Harmonized European Standards)
(05:32:48 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL is involved in eCall (as a monitor/commenter), coordinated with MSG & TISPAN
(05:33:28 AM) richard.barnes: Next meeting, late november
(05:33:40 AM) richard.barnes: For more information: emtelsupport@etsi.org
(05:34:02 AM) richard.barnes: Commercial break:
(05:34:15 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: It's only the networks that were falling apart, not mobiles.
(05:34:28 AM) richard.barnes: 3GPP is working on a direct mobile-to-mobile networking system
(05:35:13 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Jim Price on ETSI Project STF321
(05:36:25 AM) richard.barnes: STF = Specialist Task Force
(05:36:40 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI is a non-profit SDO
(05:37:01 AM) richard.barnes: Mostly funded by member contributions
(05:37:15 AM) richard.barnes: Located at Sophia Antipolis
(05:38:19 AM) linsner entered the room.
(05:39:32 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI is comprised of:
(05:39:37 AM) richard.barnes: General Assembly at the top
(05:39:51 AM) richard.barnes: Operational Coordination Group that oversees Technical Bodies
(05:40:55 AM) linsner: there are 2 presentations posted on the wiki by Jim Price (current speaker)
(05:41:17 AM) linsner: the first presentation is not being presented but is fyi
(05:41:25 AM) linsner: he is presenting the 321 presentation
(05:42:53 AM) richard.barnes: http://www.tschofenig.com/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/ETSI_Project_STF321_slides.pdf
(05:43:16 AM) richard.barnes: STFs do specific technical work for TBs
(05:43:22 AM) richard.barnes: accelerated process
(05:44:10 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 6)
(05:45:35 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 7)
(05:46:41 AM) linsner left the room.
(05:47:03 AM) linsner entered the room.
(05:47:40 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 8)
(05:49:20 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 9)
(05:50:49 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 10)
(05:53:12 AM) richard.barnes: Brian: Adopt the FCC standard! Then you'll have a single US/EU standard
(05:53:47 AM) richard.barnes: [ that was in response to the claim that the STF was evaluating whether there were existing standards to be integrated ]
(05:54:55 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 11 for the past few minutes)
(05:56:27 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: User tracking isn't done just in wireless, your home phone does the same thing
(05:56:46 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Yes, but home telephones are at home, while mobiles are wherever the user is
(05:57:03 AM) richard.barnes: Home location is generally well-known, other whereabouts aren't
(05:57:35 AM) richard.barnes: UK has new data retention rules that have caused a lot of outcry
(05:57:51 AM) richard.barnes: People don't realize that their telephone operators have been retaining information
(05:58:50 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: It's going to come down to how you provide location to people in a NGN environment.
(05:59:04 AM) richard.barnes: There's a difference between precise location and "the device is in an area"
(05:59:34 AM) richard.barnes: Price: There are degrees - even if it just says "the user is in the bar area"
(06:00:01 AM) richard.barnes: It depends on how the information is used
(06:00:15 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Does the document have requirements for location?
(06:00:32 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Is it about location itself, accuracy, or how you transmit location?
(06:00:55 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: What's the accuracy you need, vs the accuracy the technology delivers today
(06:01:10 AM) richard.barnes: It would be useful if documents like this pointed out exactly what the requirement is
(06:01:47 AM) richard.barnes: Price: There's a technology solution to determining location within 10-20m, but then it's blurred before passing to emergency services
(06:02:05 AM) richard.barnes: ... to encourage the police to try neighboring locations
(06:02:23 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: To me, that's precisely wrong -- you never tell the emergency services distorted data
(06:02:38 AM) richard.barnes: What you want them to do with it might require that they expand their search area, but you let them do it
(06:02:55 AM) richard.barnes: If they're going to break down a door, you want them to break down the right door
(06:03:13 AM) richard.barnes: (scribe taking a quick break, could someone fill in?)
(06:05:09 AM) jchiaramonte: (nothing missed)
(06:05:13 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 12)
(06:05:20 AM) richard.barnes: (scribe is back)
(06:06:12 AM) richard.barnes: We've discounted non-voice emergency calls
(06:06:30 AM) richard.barnes: Ruled them out as the first alert, not as supplementary information
(06:06:44 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: We already have that! OnStar generates telematics that's the initial alert
(06:06:59 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Right, same as eCall
(06:07:18 AM) richard.barnes: Some countries don't allow automatic initiation of emergency calls -- have to go through a call center
(06:08:23 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: You allow for TDD/TTY calls, but those have largely been replaced with things like PDAs
(06:08:36 AM) richard.barnes: So I don't see how you can rule out non-voice and still include TTY
(06:09:05 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: In the US, most folks are moving to PDAs with instant messaging
(06:09:18 AM) richard.barnes: They go to PSAPs through a relay, they want to be able to go direct
(06:09:32 AM) richard.barnes: Price: PSAPs are not set up for that
(06:09:42 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: But this is a document to define how things should be
(06:09:51 AM) richard.barnes: Price: We do need to revisit that decision
(06:10:37 AM) richard.barnes: Palm: Each country is looking into these type of solutions, but we need common European standards to make sure that it's uniform
(06:11:08 AM) richard.barnes: Price: We have made lots of public solicitations for input and have had no input from Sweden or Norway
(06:11:44 AM) richard.barnes: There's a public email list for that people can subscribe to (contact Jim for access)
(06:12:57 AM) jchiaramonte: STF321 Home Page: http://portal.etsi.org/stfs/STF_HomePages/STF321/STF321.asp
(06:14:33 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: If you make a hundred million calls and one is to save your life, then you really need that one to succeed
(06:14:54 AM) richard.barnes: Price: But the probability of that call failing is the same as the call to your granny
(06:15:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Only if you design it that way
(06:15:11 AM) richard.barnes: Price: You can't legislate 100% reliability
(06:15:45 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 14)
(06:16:42 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 15)
(06:16:47 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 16)
(06:18:04 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: I've been dealing with "lack of incentive to deploy LIS" for a while
(06:18:17 AM) richard.barnes: The access network has always been responsible for providing location
(06:18:30 AM) richard.barnes: When you split the voice network off, the access network retains that responsibility
(06:18:49 AM) richard.barnes: Just because your ISP doesn't provide voice service -- it's still an access network
(06:19:38 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: The only incentive for VSPs is regulation, and the same will be true for ISPs.
(06:19:59 AM) richard.barnes: Price: It is regulation, so perhaps the regulators in the room should take note
(06:20:11 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 17)
(06:21:02 AM) richard.barnes: Swiss have done a study of ad-hoc network location
(06:21:26 AM) richard.barnes: Edge nodes have access to, say, GPS, then positioning progresses inward
(06:21:31 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 18)
(06:22:24 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: I get nervous when I see information content and format changes
(06:22:34 AM) richard.barnes: We've done a lot of work on this and requested lots of input
(06:22:51 AM) richard.barnes: We've included all that input, and then we see people saying "we need extra fields"
(06:23:09 AM) richard.barnes: Before you do that, please come see if we can already accommodate your needs
(06:23:31 AM) richard.barnes: Price: I've complained today about the lack of input to the STD, it may be you're in a similar situation
(06:23:51 AM) richard.barnes: Within the current IETF documents, there's something like 40-50 fields in an address
(06:24:02 AM) richard.barnes: Do we need all of them, or should it be more customizable?
(06:24:23 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: That was done specifically to be applicable around the world
(06:25:03 AM) richard.barnes: You don't need to fill in all of them in every case; countries SHOULD generate profiles, sets of fields that make sense in their country
(06:25:27 AM) richard.barnes: Price: That makes sense at the national level, maybe the European level
(06:25:32 AM) richard.barnes: What's the overhead of all these fields?
(06:26:07 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: The structure is explicitly defined so that we don't have names for all the fields that everyone uses, but a more abstract hierarchy
(06:26:37 AM) richard.barnes: We're getting to the point where we can address an individual chair, that's a lot of the extra fields
(06:26:46 AM) richard.barnes: We did that because we think that's useful
(06:27:09 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Fields without values just aren't there - there's no overhead
(06:28:44 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: The LIS will have an idea of what's relevant in its local area
(06:29:32 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: We also need to be careful not to convolute postal and other civic addresses
(06:29:46 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 19 -- last slide)
(06:32:02 AM) richard.barnes: End of Jim's presentation
(06:32:41 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Hannes on CableLabs
(06:32:42 AM) richard.barnes: http://www.tschofenig.com/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/PacketCable-Oct-2007-update.ppt
(06:32:58 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes speaking on behalf of Sandeep Sharma
(06:33:12 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 2
(06:36:08 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 3
(06:36:34 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Call marking is not an unreasonable requirement
(06:36:51 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: But we had been thinking that marking would be within the ESInet, this is by the end host
(06:39:07 AM) richard.barnes: (missed a couple of comments)
(06:39:21 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Clearly, to do prioritization in public networks, you need markings
(06:39:45 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: That seems more the domain of authority-to-authority, this is cit-auth
(06:40:09 AM) jchiaramonte: Winterbottom:why do we need to mark traffic within an emergency network when all traffic is emergency-based?
(06:40:23 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: There are actually some proposals to do DSCP for these purposes
(06:40:51 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes: goes back to yesterday - how do you prioritize one emergency over another?
(06:40:58 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Again, there's value in marking the packets of an emergency call -- what your per-hop behavior is in different networks will be different
(06:41:15 AM) richard.barnes: That doesn't diminish the notion that marking can be valuable
(06:41:26 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: This really is just QoS
(06:41:47 AM) richard.barnes: Haven't had much discussion/work on what this means
(06:41:57 AM) richard.barnes: (End of cableLabs update)
(06:43:12 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Isidro Nistal on OMA
(06:43:25 AM) richard.barnes: (no slides yet)
(06:44:47 AM) richard.barnes: This will just be a quick status update
(06:45:32 AM) richard.barnes: OMA is not focused on emergency services; they're about value-added services
(06:45:45 AM) richard.barnes: OMA has been providing location standards to 3GPP
(06:46:25 AM) richard.barnes: OMA conducts testing as well as making standards
(06:46:30 AM) richard.barnes: Focusing on OMA Location ...
(06:46:50 AM) richard.barnes: Goal: to ensure interoperability of Location Services on an end-to-end basis
(06:47:12 AM) richard.barnes: Group maintains liaisons with relevant organizations
(06:47:18 AM) jchiaramonte: Presentation has been posted: http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/OMA-LOC.ppt
(06:47:50 AM) richard.barnes: 2 "old" enablers: MLS and SUPL
(06:48:15 AM) richard.barnes: 2 "new" enablers: Global Location (GL) and Location in the SIP/IP core (SIPLOC)
(06:48:53 AM) richard.barnes: Skipping MLS discussion since Olaf discussed on Tuesday
(06:49:13 AM) richard.barnes: PCP removed because of lack of industry interest
(06:49:25 AM) richard.barnes: (they deal with privacy internally, so they don't need a protocol for it)
(06:49:42 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: PCP was presented on the first day, and it wasn't really a protocol ...?
(06:49:57 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Actually, it is an XML protocol
(06:50:13 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: I thought you query the PCP and it says yes/no
(06:50:24 AM) richard.barnes: It doesn't give you the privacy profile, just a yes/no answer
(06:51:10 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: How does this relate to IETF common policy work?
(06:51:35 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Certainly one thing that was considered was to use common policy within a PCP server (privacy profile register?)
(06:52:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: But that's irrelevant now, because it's been deleted? It's implementation-dependent?
(06:52:26 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Yes, but there is a new permissions effort in OMA -- GPM, Global Permissions Management
(06:52:32 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 10)
(06:53:11 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI "Emergency Location Protocol" is a profile of MLS
(06:53:39 AM) richard.barnes: SUPL employs user plane channels to transfer location assistance information
(06:53:48 AM) richard.barnes: ... and location information
(06:55:09 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Several people have gotten confused -- when the SUPL transaction is finished, does the endpoint know where it is?
(06:55:18 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom/Marshall/Nistal: Sometimes
(06:55:48 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Even AGPS has multiple variants, some of which have the network do the fix
(06:56:11 AM) richard.barnes: Marshall: In AGPS, it's optional to provide the location back to the endpoint
(06:56:38 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: In some cases, the terminal gives the data to the network, and network does the fix and returns the location to the SUPL querier
(06:57:22 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Ok, suppose you've got something else instead of GPS. Would the endpoint use SUPL to determine where it is?
(06:58:23 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: No. Without a home SLP in a home nework, SUPL doesn't work
(06:58:59 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: If you don't have GPS, it doesn't work without a home SLP. But if you've got AGPS and GPRS, then you can do it just through the visited network
(06:59:49 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: As I understand, if you connect to the terminal from the visited SLP, all your doing is sending a SUPL INIT, which makes the terminal go back to the home network
(07:00:30 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: There's no direct relationship between MLP and SUPL
(07:00:40 AM) richard.barnes: SUPL 2.0 coming soon
(07:00:54 AM) richard.barnes: adds support for WLAN and SIP push
(07:01:11 AM) richard.barnes: .. and triggered location
(07:01:27 AM) richard.barnes: SUPL 2.0 did have some ES requirements
(07:01:52 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 14 now)
(07:03:04 AM) richard.barnes: E-SLP : Emergency SUPL Location Platform
(07:03:10 AM) richard.barnes: A particular SLP associated with emergency services
(07:05:06 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: What's different in the emergency case?
(07:05:13 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Nothing, it's just another SLP
(07:06:08 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom/Nistal: Trust model is different
(07:06:19 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: So it's just an SLP that gets access to the terminal when others wouldn't?
(07:06:22 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Yes
(07:06:44 AM) linsner left the room.
(07:07:10 AM) richard.barnes: SIPLOC intended to be a SIP interface to access location
(07:07:25 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: So you're thinking that it's like the IETF presence mechanism
(07:07:26 AM) richard.barnes: ?
(07:07:31 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: It will be similar
(07:07:37 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Similar?
(07:08:02 AM) richard.barnes: In my company, we will have a single IMS core with a single presence service
(07:10:17 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: IETF already has a mature mechanism for requesting location over SIP, so this should mostly be a copy/paste/reference
(07:10:30 AM) richard.barnes: Please engage us to make sure we do as little extra work as possible
(07:10:50 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: We're not the GEOPRIV chairs, but we pass this on to him to get all the liaisons in place
(07:11:05 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: The location conveyance capability in SIP already covers more than you can do with MLP
(07:11:30 AM) richard.barnes: If this is an exercise to tunnel MLP through SIP, then it's not particularly useful
(07:11:41 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Do you know the name of the Ericsson person leading this?
(07:11:55 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Yes, but can't spell it
(07:12:08 AM) richard.barnes: Global location was just approved as a work item
(07:12:47 AM) richard.barnes: Front end to abstract over positioning technologies
(07:13:40 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Think the approach we take within IETF and elsewhere is that you have a LIS that looks after the access network & user and it would advertise various things to the presence server
(07:14:25 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: We're going to have an IMS core, and there's going to be all sorts of access networks coming in
(07:14:57 AM) richard.barnes: There's not necessarily a visited network, devices are not necessarily SUPL-enabled
(07:15:32 AM) richard.barnes: Core is completely agnostic to access technology, beyond that they're IP-capable
(07:15:41 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: But there are access networks ...
(07:15:52 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: We have no idea what the access networks are
(07:16:45 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Any time you want to get services with the core, you need to register with it
(07:18:08 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: It's not a beauty contest between the different location mechanism
(07:18:30 AM) richard.barnes: If we can't count on this enabler being available in all devices, we can't rely on it in the general architecture
(07:18:53 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: (drawing on the whiteboard)
(07:20:27 AM) linsner entered the room.
(07:21:15 AM) linsner: replaced OMA presentation
(07:21:42 AM) richard.barnes: (Hannes is taking a picture of the whiteboard)
(08:01:03 AM) richard.barnes entered the room.
(08:01:03 AM) SDO Emergency Services Workshop 2007
(08:01:04 AM) HannesTschofenig has set the topic to: 3rd Emergency Services Workshop
(08:01:08 AM) richard.barnes: (we broke for lunch a few minutes ago)
(08:01:21 AM) richard.barnes: (we're back now)
(08:05:40 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: John Chiaramonte on the USDoT NG9-1-1 program
(08:05:42 AM) richard.barnes: <http://www.tschofenig.com/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/USDOT_NG9-1-1_Initiative_Overview.ppt>
(08:06:44 AM) richard.barnes: Now on slide 3
(08:07:28 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(08:08:18 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 5
(08:09:23 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(08:10:32 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 7
(08:12:51 AM) richard.barnes: (describing the diagram - all the stakeholders involved, how they connect)
(08:12:59 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 8
(08:13:18 AM) richard.barnes: Recognized early-on that we can't do everything that's involved in NG9-1-1
(08:13:43 AM) richard.barnes: Focus on access methods, routing, communication with PSAPs
(08:13:58 AM) richard.barnes: not concerned with more advanced cases, like 3rd-party call centers, telematics, etc
(08:14:06 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 9
(08:14:15 AM) richard.barnes: 2yr project, ~45% done at this point
(08:14:21 AM) richard.barnes: Just starting task 3
(08:15:21 AM) richard.barnes: task 3 will run through Q208
(08:15:26 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 10
(08:16:44 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 11
(08:18:51 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 12 -- last slide
(08:18:59 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: How far along are you?
(08:19:15 AM) richard.barnes: John: Prelim. Design review just happened, Critical design review soon
(08:19:26 AM) richard.barnes: (Results will be published on the DOT website)
(08:19:34 AM) richard.barnes: Soon after, DOT will select participating PSAPs
(08:20:02 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: We will be very interested in feedback on our protocols, some of which seem to be in scope
(08:20:10 AM) richard.barnes: Is there a plan to make some of this experience available?
(08:20:24 AM) richard.barnes: Or, maybe to do some interoperability tests?
(08:20:31 AM) richard.barnes: e.g., with some LoST implementations?
(08:20:56 AM) richard.barnes: John: Can't show the architecture, since it hasn't been cleared, but it makes a lot of use of LoST
(08:21:11 AM) richard.barnes: Definitely a chance for SDO stakeholders to participate
(08:21:28 AM) richard.barnes: We're going to publish our results -- DOT is looking to share this with people
(08:21:53 AM) richard.barnes: E.g., even though DOT is US-focused, there's nothing US-specific about our proof-of-concept
(08:22:06 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Do you plan to make the implementation code public?
(08:22:12 AM) richard.barnes: John: Don't know. Assume so.
(08:22:44 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: As someone who's involved in this ....
(08:23:01 AM) richard.barnes: I've been asked by some people whether this is going to generate some presumed "this is the way to do it"
(08:23:24 AM) richard.barnes: Don't think that's the case. This is definitely a short term effort to test out concepts that the SDOs are producing
(08:23:42 AM) richard.barnes: The analysis so far is more conceptual than literal
(08:24:04 AM) richard.barnes: Some assumptions might change how we need to do things
(08:24:17 AM) richard.barnes: Design necessarily focuses on high-priority items
(08:24:36 AM) richard.barnes: 300-400 detailed requirements, 50% PoC requriements
(08:25:08 AM) richard.barnes: Won't be deployable, at least in the sense that it must replicate or improve on current E9-1-1
(08:25:56 AM) richard.barnes: Puts some emphasis on what can be done
(08:26:12 AM) richard.barnes: Hopefully will provide the disbelievers some evidence that this can happen
(08:26:34 AM) richard.barnes: This effort is very supportive of our overall objective
(08:26:48 AM) richard.barnes: John: We've always characterized this as a framework, not a blueprint
(08:27:37 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: This will probably be a hot topic at NENA's next meeting
(08:28:23 AM) richard.barnes: John: Linda/Laurie would be glad to provide gov't perspective
(08:28:32 AM) richard.barnes: ... and that's all for John
(08:28:53 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Christian Militeau on ATIS-ESIF
(08:28:54 AM) richard.barnes: http://www.tschofenig.com/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/ATIS_ESIF_Status_Update_(ESW07).ppt
(08:29:00 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 1
(08:29:44 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 2
(08:30:12 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(08:30:17 AM) richard.barnes: oops, Slide 3
(08:31:03 AM) richard.barnes: ESIF was asked to look at requirements of FCC & other government mandates
(08:31:08 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(08:31:50 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 5
(08:34:38 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(08:34:46 AM) richard.barnes: This is the V0 interface in NENA i2
(08:35:57 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 7
(08:37:24 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 8
(08:37:28 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 9
(08:39:12 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 10
(08:40:05 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 11
(08:40:15 AM) richard.barnes: More details about current activities
(08:41:43 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 12
(08:42:49 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 13
(08:43:13 AM) richard.barnes: Top sub-bullet to be addressed in 3GPP Release 8
(08:43:33 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 14 -- last slide
(08:45:16 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: In your discussion of location acquisition protocols (slide 6), it seems like it's related to what Jim spoke about
(08:45:24 AM) richard.barnes: Can you summarize your conclusions there?
(08:46:12 AM) richard.barnes: Christian: Looking at the V0 interface in NENA i2, asked to recommend a protocol for that interface. Recommendation was to use HELD.
(08:46:53 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Have you come to some intermediate conclusions about location determination?
(08:47:08 AM) richard.barnes: Christian: Too soon. Should have stage 1 by end of 1Q08
(08:47:41 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: This recent EU (CGALIES?) report seems similar
(08:48:29 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Olivier Paul-Morandini on EENA
(08:48:30 AM) richard.barnes: http://www.tschofenig.com/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/EswAgenda2007/EENA-2-EWS-3rd_SDO_ESW.ppt
(08:48:42 AM) richard.barnes: Early warning systems
(08:48:54 AM) richard.barnes: Slide: EWS: 2 Componants
(08:49:50 AM) richard.barnes: Slide: EENA's actions for EWS
(08:50:01 AM) richard.barnes: EENA is primarily dealing at a political level
(08:51:29 AM) richard.barnes: CHORIST project harmonizes early warning systems
(08:52:27 AM) richard.barnes: There are existing EWS between authorities, but none to communicate to citizens
(08:53:00 AM) richard.barnes: Getting the need into an official report makes it easier to make it a priority politically
(08:53:33 AM) richard.barnes: Next year, there will be a European 1-1-2 day
(08:54:11 AM) richard.barnes: Lots of attention from EP on emergency services right now
(08:54:39 AM) richard.barnes: Slide: Agenda
(08:56:06 AM) richard.barnes: Should have a lot of official delegates from MSs' emergency services at the 1-1-2 day
(08:56:26 AM) richard.barnes: This group is doing a good job, but it needs to be translated to the MEPs
(08:56:48 AM) richard.barnes: They don't understand acronyms, but they understand citizen requirements
(08:58:27 AM) richard.barnes: Looking for folks to sign up to the EENA advisory board
(08:59:46 AM) richard.barnes: Mr. van Gaever has this concept of "subsidiarity", but that can be an excuse for MSs not to do anything
(09:00:02 AM) richard.barnes: In this case, though, we have grassroots support, people ready to move
(09:02:08 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Since this is largely a national issue, maybe it would be more effective to lobby national parliaments
(09:02:18 AM) richard.barnes: targeting those who don't implement 1-1-2 or those who have several numbers
(09:02:53 AM) richard.barnes: The incumbent operators probably have a lot more influence with the regulators, and they're probably pushing against the implementation of 1-1-2
(09:03:36 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: We're not going to take a stance on other emergency numbers.
(09:03:49 AM) richard.barnes: The important thing is that all 1-1-2 calls are answered and handled properly
(09:03:58 AM) richard.barnes: That give people the incentive to know it and use it
(09:04:30 AM) richard.barnes: Responders look at 1-1-2 as a trojan horse
(09:04:44 AM) richard.barnes: They're dealing with it because they have to
(09:05:06 AM) richard.barnes: Increasing mobility of people within Europe increases the need for 1-1-2
(09:05:21 AM) richard.barnes: If we can educate people about 1-1-2, false calls will go down
(09:05:48 AM) richard.barnes: A study showed that 1-1-2 calls sometimes go 23 rings and then go to an answering machine
(09:06:01 AM) richard.barnes: Total intervention time is up to 3hr
(09:06:20 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Agree with almost all of what you say.
(09:06:34 AM) richard.barnes: Think the next thing Europeans want is to be answered in their own language
(09:06:57 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: This is already a reality in reality
(09:07:22 AM) richard.barnes: In London, emergency calls are answered in 170 languages; AmEx always takes your call in your language
(09:08:04 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Question on the agenda slide
(09:08:20 AM) richard.barnes: You said you would like to organize PSAPs in Europe, kind of like NENA in the US
(09:08:38 AM) richard.barnes: NENA doesn't just have PSAPs, it also has a lot of technical work, and has for a long time
(09:08:56 AM) richard.barnes: You're probably 5 years late, technically
(09:10:02 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: EC is not in a position to force MSs to respond to quality criteria for emergency services
(09:10:11 AM) richard.barnes: A call from PSAPs would be much harder to resist
(09:10:51 AM) richard.barnes: Price: It's a good objective, but pressure on the major operators in the "offending" MSs and their regulators is likely to get a better result faster
(09:11:18 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: We tried to have someone here from CHORIST. Do you know more details about what they do?
(09:11:42 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: They will issue technical specs; EENA's role is to get information and collect citizen requirements
(09:12:44 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Here's another citizen requirement: You want a warning for someone related to you.
(09:12:57 AM) richard.barnes: I want to know when the earthquake is going to hit my daughter, not just me
(09:14:45 AM) richard.barnes: ???: There is another aspect, which is mobilizing public safety users, planners
(09:15:02 AM) richard.barnes: there we have had a challenge, in that the regional authorities have not been targeted
(09:15:19 AM) jchiaramonte: ?? Egil Bovim
(09:16:14 AM) jchiaramonte: Olivier is done
(09:16:34 AM) jchiaramonte: Roger Hixson - NENA presentation
(09:17:32 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - all presentations are available on the Wiki page - Hannu's presentation from yesterday has been updated to include the statistics slide from Switzerland
(09:17:44 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson starting
(09:18:04 AM) jchiaramonte: Orientation and status of NENA in North America
(09:18:14 AM) jchiaramonte: Current NENA actions
(09:18:26 AM) jchiaramonte: not just NG9-1-1, but NG Emergency Comms in general
(09:19:32 AM) jchiaramonte: "plug & play" capabilities for new NG9-1-1 services - easily integrate devices that meet standards into NG9-1-1
(09:20:34 AM) jchiaramonte: ??? - any device that can meet IP standards - should they make an emergency call?
(09:20:57 AM) JamesWinterbottom entered the room.
(09:21:02 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson - if the device is a telecommunications device - it should be able to make an emergency call
(09:21:18 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - services are announced that can't make an emergency call
(09:22:01 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - example: a carrier announced a new service - give a cell phone to a child w/whitelist (only those whitelisted could call child) - 911 could not call the phone
(09:22:34 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - complete disaster - but it's happening weekly - need to be proactive - concerted effort
(09:23:09 AM) jchiaramonte: if you build a new application or service or device or sensor network - you may have emergency call / notification requirements that you must meet
(09:23:24 AM) jchiaramonte: responders need to know about it and get input so it can be better handled
(09:24:10 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson - past - 911 didn't know about a new device + no standards = one-offs all the time / proprietary interfaces
(09:24:31 AM) jchiaramonte: need to make it so easy for new technology purveyors so they can just do it
(09:24:55 AM) jchiaramonte: do it voluntarily - easy to do - no hassle - people will tend to do it (versus being forced into it by regulators)
(09:25:17 AM) jchiaramonte: anyone that comes up with a new service can develop it to a standard and it will be seamless to the end user
(09:25:31 AM) jchiaramonte: more than just PSAPs, although concentrating on PSAP
(09:26:13 AM) jchiaramonte: On NENA website - NG911 project area - what level each state is using IP networking
(09:26:25 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - Project Activity Relationships
(09:26:34 AM) jchiaramonte: FPP = Future Path Plan
(09:27:17 AM) jchiaramonte: 2001 - FPP - still applicable today
(09:28:07 AM) jchiaramonte: NG Partner Project - initiated in 2004 - need to deal with technical / operations, vendors, regulators, etc.
(09:28:32 AM) jchiaramonte: NENA Development Status
(09:29:39 AM) jchiaramonte: open architecture is also open competition - system operations issues that must be handled by system integrators - development work still needs to be done to assist the 911 authorities
(09:30:20 AM) jchiaramonte: staged feature introduction
(09:30:48 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - NENA Interactions
(09:31:15 AM) jchiaramonte: IETF - Several people in the room help lead NENA groups
(09:31:31 AM) jchiaramonte: NENA attends the SDO meetings - coordination
(09:31:42 AM) jchiaramonte: other public safety groups
(09:31:59 AM) jchiaramonte: NANSA = National Association of Nine-one-one State Administrators
(09:32:21 AM) jchiaramonte: APCO - Association of Public Safety Communications Officials
(09:32:35 AM) jchiaramonte: APCO - more operations versus NENA - development
(09:32:41 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - Issues
(09:34:54 AM) jchiaramonte: one of the problems with VoIP and selective routers = physical connection to all the selective routers
(09:35:20 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - Standards
(09:35:49 AM) jchiaramonte: standards development - all volunteer work
(09:37:13 AM) linsner: Roger - we don't want another cellular experience
(09:39:21 AM) linsner: Roger - Canada has a more 'controlled' 911 environment
(09:42:26 AM) linsner: Starting Gunnar's preso...
(09:42:34 AM) linsner: check the wiki page for the slides
(09:44:00 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - brief trial with multimedia calls
(09:45:07 AM) jchiaramonte: next