Conversation with at Thu 01 Nov 2007 03:33:51 AM EDT on (jabber)

(03:33:52 AM) richard.barnes entered the room.
(03:33:52 AM) SDO Emergency Services Workshop 2007
(03:33:52 AM) HannesTschofenig has set the topic to: 3rd Emergency Services Workshop
(03:33:59 AM) richard.barnes: Good morning!
(03:34:22 AM) richard.barnes: We're starting the morning with an automated presentation from Manfred Arndt on LLDP-MED
(03:35:12 AM) richard.barnes:
(03:35:19 AM) richard.barnes: Currently on slide 3
(03:36:20 AM) richard.barnes: (I'm not going to record any of the audio commentary in the presentation)
(03:36:27 AM) richard.barnes: (unless anyone objects)
(03:36:46 AM) richard.barnes: (I'll just record questions / discussion)
(03:54:21 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Does anyone know the status of 802.1AB?
(03:55:13 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Know that LLDP-MED is moving to using unicast addresses, for the reasons Manfred specified
(03:57:01 AM) richard.barnes: McCann: Update on LLDP-MED as it relates to 802.1AB
(03:57:06 AM) richard.barnes: Simply, the two have diverged
(03:57:30 AM) richard.barnes: 11v currently supports location both in the terminal and the access point
(03:57:33 AM) richard.barnes: supports LbyR
(03:58:11 AM) richard.barnes: However, this work was being done in parallel with LLDP, prior to LLDP-MED
(03:58:25 AM) richard.barnes: So we have two competing location solutions within 802.11
(03:58:36 AM) richard.barnes: (no, i meant "within 802")
(03:58:44 AM) richard.barnes: LLDP for wired, 11v for wireless
(03:59:08 AM) richard.barnes: McCann et al. will try to start some ES discussions at the upcoming 802 meeting
(03:59:21 AM) richard.barnes: Looks like it's essential to have some mechanism to support LLDP-MED
(03:59:37 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Do you have a feel for what's going to happen to the "MED"?
(04:00:03 AM) richard.barnes: (since it's a TIA thing, TR41.4)
(04:00:31 AM) richard.barnes: Is 802 going to pick up that work?
(04:00:49 AM) richard.barnes: McCann: Think that's one of Manfred's goals, to bring that back into 802.1
(04:01:30 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Believe that 802.1 will need to liaise with IETF to make sure we get the MED stuff right
(04:01:59 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Several people in the IETF who would like to help with that
(04:05:34 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Hannu Hietalahti on 3GPP IMS emergency calling
(04:05:59 AM) richard.barnes: A lot of this is not finalized in R7, which means we can still affect the direction
(04:06:28 AM) richard.barnes: (no slides available)
(04:06:45 AM) richard.barnes: These slides are also out of date - the SA2 meeting last week created some news
(04:07:16 AM) richard.barnes: Rel-7 was frozen in June 2007
(04:07:34 AM) richard.barnes: ... but changes are still possible (corrections / serious problems)
(04:07:57 AM) richard.barnes: New functionality will have to go into Rel-8
(04:09:39 AM) richard.barnes: Rel-8 also includes some changes to better align with IETF
(04:09:58 AM) richard.barnes: USIM-less calls are allowed, cause trouble for PSAPs
(04:11:39 AM) richard.barnes: Finnish numbers on false calls are lower than elsewhere - ~20%
(04:11:57 AM) richard.barnes: 12% unintended, 4% silent, 4% malicious
(04:12:27 AM) richard.barnes: Are we risking more lives by overloading PSAPs than we would save by allowing the exceptions at emergency call setup?
(04:12:53 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: Emergency calls without USIM is "mandatory due to regulatory reasons"? Was this just a US thing?
(04:13:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Not just US, but don't have a reference
(04:13:20 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: Like I've said, I think the issue in the US was a misinterpretation
(04:13:39 AM) richard.barnes: At this point in time, it's more of a psychological/political issue
(04:13:59 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Welcome this comment; we should check
(04:14:58 AM) richard.barnes: ???: It's a very national discussion, and there are oppositions among countries
(04:15:19 AM) richard.barnes: E.g., NL claims that answering USIM-less calls saves a lot of lives
(04:16:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: The stats are an average, and there is a lot of regional variation
(04:16:15 AM) richard.barnes: Rel 8 has several impacts on emergency calls
(04:16:35 AM) richard.barnes: SAE (System Architecture Evolution) work is going to an IP core
(04:16:52 AM) richard.barnes: Adding non-3GPP access technologies
(04:17:59 AM) richard.barnes: Defining SAE and GPRS access-specific procedures for ECS (e.g., detection and priority)
(04:18:45 AM) richard.barnes: Dealing with transfers between 3GPP/non3GPP and PS/CS domains
(04:19:19 AM) richard.barnes: Priority service in Rel-8 is targeted to calls by specific users with authority
(04:19:58 AM) richard.barnes: Study item on IETF alignment
(04:20:30 AM) richard.barnes: De-couple access network service from IMS network service
(04:21:25 AM) JamesWinterbottom entered the room.
(04:22:01 AM) richard.barnes: Any normative changes to specifications will require a 3GPP work item
(04:22:22 AM) richard.barnes: Backwards compatibility with Rel-7 is requried
(04:22:41 AM) jchiaramonte: Presentation has been posted:
(04:23:33 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: What are HPLMN and VPLMN?
(04:23:56 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Packet networks
(04:24:12 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Is there still some assumption that you've got a roaming agreement, even when you're decoupled?
(04:24:24 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Intention of this work is to break that.
(04:25:06 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: I have been inquiring at the IETF management level as to how we can get the 3GPP and IETF ECS work better aligned
(04:25:14 AM) richard.barnes: They just said "now is the time!"
(04:25:43 AM) richard.barnes: There are folks in the IETF who are very eager to get together with their counterparts in the 3GPP
(04:26:35 AM) richard.barnes: Both: Action to figure out who the relevant players are on both sides
(04:27:48 AM) richard.barnes: McCann: Could you keep IEEE in the loop about that? Not necessarily to participate, just to be aware
(04:28:32 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: We've been having IETF-3GPP calls for a while, but this is more of a low-level "work thing"
(04:29:18 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu:
(04:29:28 AM) richard.barnes: SA3 is working security
(04:29:39 AM) richard.barnes: user plane encryption ends at eNB
(04:29:47 AM) richard.barnes: (eNB = base station)
(04:30:17 AM) richard.barnes: SIM access is prohibited in LTE (long term evolution?)
(04:30:26 AM) richard.barnes: We'll see if that actually happens
(04:31:38 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: What does MME stand for? Hannu: Don't know!
(04:32:00 AM) richard.barnes: It's the signaling that needs to selects the gateways, finds the home network, does hand-over, etc
(04:32:20 AM) richard.barnes: authentication is under the control of the MME, but it doesn't do all of it
(04:32:51 AM) richard.barnes: Milan: MME = Mobility Management Entity
(04:33:02 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: Had to call it something
(04:33:10 AM) richard.barnes: (now on slide 11)
(04:34:15 AM) richard.barnes: Legal intercept in MME and serving gateway
(04:35:56 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 12)
(04:37:15 AM) richard.barnes: non-3GPP access (23.402 / 4.2) includes a concept of trusted vs untrusted networks
(04:37:38 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 13)
(04:38:11 AM) richard.barnes: Common IMS is an effort to harmonize lots of different organizations' IMS
(04:39:49 AM) richard.barnes: Still working scope a little bit, but it's clear that emergency calling is in scope
(04:39:59 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Also looking at merging with ATIS VTSC?
(04:40:14 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: ATIS guys are not involved, not thrilled
(04:40:55 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: What's surprising is that ATIS is a 3GPP Organizational Partner, which means that they agreed to this plan
(04:41:15 AM) richard.barnes: Hopefully we can create a critical mass in 3GPP so that it doesn't make sense for people to diverg
(04:42:17 AM) richard.barnes: TISPAN IMS being merged into Rel-8 TSs and TRs
(04:43:19 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 14
(04:43:43 AM) richard.barnes: Emergency calls are in the highlighted box at the top
(04:43:47 AM) richard.barnes: That's all from Hannu
(05:03:05 AM) richard.barnes: (took a few minutes break)
(05:03:08 AM) richard.barnes: (back now)
(05:03:55 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Leopold Murhammer on ETSI EMTEL
(05:04:32 AM) richard.barnes: (no slides yet)
(05:04:57 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL started as an ad-hoc coordination group
(05:05:08 AM) richard.barnes: Main responsibilities of EMTEL:
(05:05:24 AM) richard.barnes: Coordinating requirements, disseminating to SDOs
(05:05:37 AM) richard.barnes: Coordinating ESTI positions on EMTEL issues
(05:06:07 AM) richard.barnes: Requirements are cit-auth, auth-auth, auth-cit, cit-cit (the usual cases)
(05:07:05 AM) richard.barnes: Agnostic with respect to fixed/mobile
(05:07:15 AM) richard.barnes: and private/public
(05:08:48 AM) richard.barnes: Several interfaces involved in emergency communications
(05:10:11 AM) richard.barnes: Requirements flow: EGEA (expert group) (operational) --> EMTEL (functional) --> SDOs (standards)
(05:12:31 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL covers not just emergency calling, but more broadly, before, during, and after an emergency
(05:14:53 AM) richard.barnes: currently working on PATS regulatory issues and TETRA
(05:15:36 AM) richard.barnes: Current work on VoIP - TR 102 476 - targeted for Feb 2008
(05:16:34 AM) richard.barnes: Per Palm is rapporteur for that document
(05:16:58 AM) richard.barnes: Palm: At the next meeting, I hope we will finish the document
(05:17:22 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: It's not available at the moment
(05:17:32 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: It will be out soon
(05:17:59 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Is there a plan to send it out for review?
(05:18:45 AM) richard.barnes: Palm: The problem we have is that there's a gap between how the SDOs think and how the PSAPs think
(05:18:56 AM) richard.barnes: So we started to ask "what is it that we need"
(05:19:28 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL effort is somewhere in between EGEA and what we're doing here
(05:19:54 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: Usually documents are sent out to other organizations for comment
(05:21:04 AM) richard.barnes: ???: Question is "what do we need?" and "is it available?". EMTEL is about halfway in between.
(05:22:33 AM) richard.barnes: Price: As technical people, we are sometime inclined to overshoot what our users want
(05:22:53 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL is a good place for users and technical people to come together
(05:23:09 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Sounds like this group is not too different from NENA
(05:23:35 AM) richard.barnes: Could NENA be on the distribution list when that document comes around for comment?
(05:24:22 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: We have been trying to get you guys to work on this stuff in a way that lets you decide what the standards are before you know what you need.
(05:24:33 AM) richard.barnes: You've pretty much missed that boat, it's been done without your input
(05:25:17 AM) richard.barnes: The problem is that devices and services are being created faster than we can figure out how to integrate them into ES systems
(05:25:24 AM) richard.barnes: The users don't care
(05:25:40 AM) richard.barnes: e.g., why can't a handicapped user send text to a PSAP?
(05:26:00 AM) richard.barnes: The rate of change is increasing, the time frame is going down, so we have to move faster
(05:26:39 AM) richard.barnes: On the other hand, it's very clear that our current systems don't work
(05:27:02 AM) richard.barnes: In New Orleans, the phone system failed, the Internet didn't, and all the responders were on the phone
(05:27:17 AM) richard.barnes: We need to push the responders -- they have to get into these new technologies because they work better
(05:27:32 AM) richard.barnes: we can better serve our citizens and visitors (probably at lower cost)
(05:27:45 AM) richard.barnes: The technology guys are driving it, that's just the reality
(05:27:59 AM) richard.barnes: ???: I partly agree, not totally
(05:28:30 AM) richard.barnes: You're right that development is going very fast (I'm in NENA as well)
(05:28:49 AM) richard.barnes: The challenge is that you get the users that are really keen on this; what do you do about the rest?
(05:29:01 AM) richard.barnes: It's not only the technology that's changing, it's the medicine as well
(05:29:51 AM) richard.barnes: We can make technology that's useless to responders once it's deployed
(05:30:22 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: From a pragmatic point of view, IETF has been well-coordinated with NENA because of an overlap in people, not so for ETSI
(05:30:41 AM) richard.barnes: Maybe we can do something at the next IETF?
(05:30:54 AM) richard.barnes: Solicit some quick feedback before we finish our docs?
(05:31:01 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: It's never too late for feedback!
(05:31:36 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: This document will be passed around via the liaison mechanism
(05:32:04 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI is also involved in some HENs (Harmonized European Standards)
(05:32:48 AM) richard.barnes: EMTEL is involved in eCall (as a monitor/commenter), coordinated with MSG & TISPAN
(05:33:28 AM) richard.barnes: Next meeting, late november
(05:33:40 AM) richard.barnes: For more information:
(05:34:02 AM) richard.barnes: Commercial break:
(05:34:15 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: It's only the networks that were falling apart, not mobiles.
(05:34:28 AM) richard.barnes: 3GPP is working on a direct mobile-to-mobile networking system
(05:35:13 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Jim Price on ETSI Project STF321
(05:36:25 AM) richard.barnes: STF = Specialist Task Force
(05:36:40 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI is a non-profit SDO
(05:37:01 AM) richard.barnes: Mostly funded by member contributions
(05:37:15 AM) richard.barnes: Located at Sophia Antipolis
(05:38:19 AM) linsner entered the room.
(05:39:32 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI is comprised of:
(05:39:37 AM) richard.barnes: General Assembly at the top
(05:39:51 AM) richard.barnes: Operational Coordination Group that oversees Technical Bodies
(05:40:55 AM) linsner: there are 2 presentations posted on the wiki by Jim Price (current speaker)
(05:41:17 AM) linsner: the first presentation is not being presented but is fyi
(05:41:25 AM) linsner: he is presenting the 321 presentation
(05:42:53 AM) richard.barnes:
(05:43:16 AM) richard.barnes: STFs do specific technical work for TBs
(05:43:22 AM) richard.barnes: accelerated process
(05:44:10 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 6)
(05:45:35 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 7)
(05:46:41 AM) linsner left the room.
(05:47:03 AM) linsner entered the room.
(05:47:40 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 8)
(05:49:20 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 9)
(05:50:49 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 10)
(05:53:12 AM) richard.barnes: Brian: Adopt the FCC standard! Then you'll have a single US/EU standard
(05:53:47 AM) richard.barnes: [ that was in response to the claim that the STF was evaluating whether there were existing standards to be integrated ]
(05:54:55 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 11 for the past few minutes)
(05:56:27 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: User tracking isn't done just in wireless, your home phone does the same thing
(05:56:46 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Yes, but home telephones are at home, while mobiles are wherever the user is
(05:57:03 AM) richard.barnes: Home location is generally well-known, other whereabouts aren't
(05:57:35 AM) richard.barnes: UK has new data retention rules that have caused a lot of outcry
(05:57:51 AM) richard.barnes: People don't realize that their telephone operators have been retaining information
(05:58:50 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: It's going to come down to how you provide location to people in a NGN environment.
(05:59:04 AM) richard.barnes: There's a difference between precise location and "the device is in an area"
(05:59:34 AM) richard.barnes: Price: There are degrees - even if it just says "the user is in the bar area"
(06:00:01 AM) richard.barnes: It depends on how the information is used
(06:00:15 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Does the document have requirements for location?
(06:00:32 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Is it about location itself, accuracy, or how you transmit location?
(06:00:55 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: What's the accuracy you need, vs the accuracy the technology delivers today
(06:01:10 AM) richard.barnes: It would be useful if documents like this pointed out exactly what the requirement is
(06:01:47 AM) richard.barnes: Price: There's a technology solution to determining location within 10-20m, but then it's blurred before passing to emergency services
(06:02:05 AM) richard.barnes: ... to encourage the police to try neighboring locations
(06:02:23 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: To me, that's precisely wrong -- you never tell the emergency services distorted data
(06:02:38 AM) richard.barnes: What you want them to do with it might require that they expand their search area, but you let them do it
(06:02:55 AM) richard.barnes: If they're going to break down a door, you want them to break down the right door
(06:03:13 AM) richard.barnes: (scribe taking a quick break, could someone fill in?)
(06:05:09 AM) jchiaramonte: (nothing missed)
(06:05:13 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 12)
(06:05:20 AM) richard.barnes: (scribe is back)
(06:06:12 AM) richard.barnes: We've discounted non-voice emergency calls
(06:06:30 AM) richard.barnes: Ruled them out as the first alert, not as supplementary information
(06:06:44 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: We already have that! OnStar generates telematics that's the initial alert
(06:06:59 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Right, same as eCall
(06:07:18 AM) richard.barnes: Some countries don't allow automatic initiation of emergency calls -- have to go through a call center
(06:08:23 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: You allow for TDD/TTY calls, but those have largely been replaced with things like PDAs
(06:08:36 AM) richard.barnes: So I don't see how you can rule out non-voice and still include TTY
(06:09:05 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: In the US, most folks are moving to PDAs with instant messaging
(06:09:18 AM) richard.barnes: They go to PSAPs through a relay, they want to be able to go direct
(06:09:32 AM) richard.barnes: Price: PSAPs are not set up for that
(06:09:42 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: But this is a document to define how things should be
(06:09:51 AM) richard.barnes: Price: We do need to revisit that decision
(06:10:37 AM) richard.barnes: Palm: Each country is looking into these type of solutions, but we need common European standards to make sure that it's uniform
(06:11:08 AM) richard.barnes: Price: We have made lots of public solicitations for input and have had no input from Sweden or Norway
(06:11:44 AM) richard.barnes: There's a public email list for that people can subscribe to (contact Jim for access)
(06:12:57 AM) jchiaramonte: STF321 Home Page:
(06:14:33 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: If you make a hundred million calls and one is to save your life, then you really need that one to succeed
(06:14:54 AM) richard.barnes: Price: But the probability of that call failing is the same as the call to your granny
(06:15:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Only if you design it that way
(06:15:11 AM) richard.barnes: Price: You can't legislate 100% reliability
(06:15:45 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 14)
(06:16:42 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 15)
(06:16:47 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 16)
(06:18:04 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: I've been dealing with "lack of incentive to deploy LIS" for a while
(06:18:17 AM) richard.barnes: The access network has always been responsible for providing location
(06:18:30 AM) richard.barnes: When you split the voice network off, the access network retains that responsibility
(06:18:49 AM) richard.barnes: Just because your ISP doesn't provide voice service -- it's still an access network
(06:19:38 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: The only incentive for VSPs is regulation, and the same will be true for ISPs.
(06:19:59 AM) richard.barnes: Price: It is regulation, so perhaps the regulators in the room should take note
(06:20:11 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 17)
(06:21:02 AM) richard.barnes: Swiss have done a study of ad-hoc network location
(06:21:26 AM) richard.barnes: Edge nodes have access to, say, GPS, then positioning progresses inward
(06:21:31 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 18)
(06:22:24 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: I get nervous when I see information content and format changes
(06:22:34 AM) richard.barnes: We've done a lot of work on this and requested lots of input
(06:22:51 AM) richard.barnes: We've included all that input, and then we see people saying "we need extra fields"
(06:23:09 AM) richard.barnes: Before you do that, please come see if we can already accommodate your needs
(06:23:31 AM) richard.barnes: Price: I've complained today about the lack of input to the STD, it may be you're in a similar situation
(06:23:51 AM) richard.barnes: Within the current IETF documents, there's something like 40-50 fields in an address
(06:24:02 AM) richard.barnes: Do we need all of them, or should it be more customizable?
(06:24:23 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: That was done specifically to be applicable around the world
(06:25:03 AM) richard.barnes: You don't need to fill in all of them in every case; countries SHOULD generate profiles, sets of fields that make sense in their country
(06:25:27 AM) richard.barnes: Price: That makes sense at the national level, maybe the European level
(06:25:32 AM) richard.barnes: What's the overhead of all these fields?
(06:26:07 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: The structure is explicitly defined so that we don't have names for all the fields that everyone uses, but a more abstract hierarchy
(06:26:37 AM) richard.barnes: We're getting to the point where we can address an individual chair, that's a lot of the extra fields
(06:26:46 AM) richard.barnes: We did that because we think that's useful
(06:27:09 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Fields without values just aren't there - there's no overhead
(06:28:44 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: The LIS will have an idea of what's relevant in its local area
(06:29:32 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: We also need to be careful not to convolute postal and other civic addresses
(06:29:46 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 19 -- last slide)
(06:32:02 AM) richard.barnes: End of Jim's presentation
(06:32:41 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Hannes on CableLabs
(06:32:42 AM) richard.barnes:
(06:32:58 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes speaking on behalf of Sandeep Sharma
(06:33:12 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 2
(06:36:08 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 3
(06:36:34 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Call marking is not an unreasonable requirement
(06:36:51 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: But we had been thinking that marking would be within the ESInet, this is by the end host
(06:39:07 AM) richard.barnes: (missed a couple of comments)
(06:39:21 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Clearly, to do prioritization in public networks, you need markings
(06:39:45 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: That seems more the domain of authority-to-authority, this is cit-auth
(06:40:09 AM) jchiaramonte: Winterbottom:why do we need to mark traffic within an emergency network when all traffic is emergency-based?
(06:40:23 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: There are actually some proposals to do DSCP for these purposes
(06:40:51 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes: goes back to yesterday - how do you prioritize one emergency over another?
(06:40:58 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Again, there's value in marking the packets of an emergency call -- what your per-hop behavior is in different networks will be different
(06:41:15 AM) richard.barnes: That doesn't diminish the notion that marking can be valuable
(06:41:26 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: This really is just QoS
(06:41:47 AM) richard.barnes: Haven't had much discussion/work on what this means
(06:41:57 AM) richard.barnes: (End of cableLabs update)
(06:43:12 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Isidro Nistal on OMA
(06:43:25 AM) richard.barnes: (no slides yet)
(06:44:47 AM) richard.barnes: This will just be a quick status update
(06:45:32 AM) richard.barnes: OMA is not focused on emergency services; they're about value-added services
(06:45:45 AM) richard.barnes: OMA has been providing location standards to 3GPP
(06:46:25 AM) richard.barnes: OMA conducts testing as well as making standards
(06:46:30 AM) richard.barnes: Focusing on OMA Location ...
(06:46:50 AM) richard.barnes: Goal: to ensure interoperability of Location Services on an end-to-end basis
(06:47:12 AM) richard.barnes: Group maintains liaisons with relevant organizations
(06:47:18 AM) jchiaramonte: Presentation has been posted:
(06:47:50 AM) richard.barnes: 2 "old" enablers: MLS and SUPL
(06:48:15 AM) richard.barnes: 2 "new" enablers: Global Location (GL) and Location in the SIP/IP core (SIPLOC)
(06:48:53 AM) richard.barnes: Skipping MLS discussion since Olaf discussed on Tuesday
(06:49:13 AM) richard.barnes: PCP removed because of lack of industry interest
(06:49:25 AM) richard.barnes: (they deal with privacy internally, so they don't need a protocol for it)
(06:49:42 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: PCP was presented on the first day, and it wasn't really a protocol ...?
(06:49:57 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Actually, it is an XML protocol
(06:50:13 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: I thought you query the PCP and it says yes/no
(06:50:24 AM) richard.barnes: It doesn't give you the privacy profile, just a yes/no answer
(06:51:10 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: How does this relate to IETF common policy work?
(06:51:35 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Certainly one thing that was considered was to use common policy within a PCP server (privacy profile register?)
(06:52:03 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: But that's irrelevant now, because it's been deleted? It's implementation-dependent?
(06:52:26 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Yes, but there is a new permissions effort in OMA -- GPM, Global Permissions Management
(06:52:32 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 10)
(06:53:11 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI "Emergency Location Protocol" is a profile of MLS
(06:53:39 AM) richard.barnes: SUPL employs user plane channels to transfer location assistance information
(06:53:48 AM) richard.barnes: ... and location information
(06:55:09 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Several people have gotten confused -- when the SUPL transaction is finished, does the endpoint know where it is?
(06:55:18 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom/Marshall/Nistal: Sometimes
(06:55:48 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Even AGPS has multiple variants, some of which have the network do the fix
(06:56:11 AM) richard.barnes: Marshall: In AGPS, it's optional to provide the location back to the endpoint
(06:56:38 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: In some cases, the terminal gives the data to the network, and network does the fix and returns the location to the SUPL querier
(06:57:22 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Ok, suppose you've got something else instead of GPS. Would the endpoint use SUPL to determine where it is?
(06:58:23 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: No. Without a home SLP in a home nework, SUPL doesn't work
(06:58:59 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: If you don't have GPS, it doesn't work without a home SLP. But if you've got AGPS and GPRS, then you can do it just through the visited network
(06:59:49 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: As I understand, if you connect to the terminal from the visited SLP, all your doing is sending a SUPL INIT, which makes the terminal go back to the home network
(07:00:30 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: There's no direct relationship between MLP and SUPL
(07:00:40 AM) richard.barnes: SUPL 2.0 coming soon
(07:00:54 AM) richard.barnes: adds support for WLAN and SIP push
(07:01:11 AM) richard.barnes: .. and triggered location
(07:01:27 AM) richard.barnes: SUPL 2.0 did have some ES requirements
(07:01:52 AM) richard.barnes: (slide 14 now)
(07:03:04 AM) richard.barnes: E-SLP : Emergency SUPL Location Platform
(07:03:10 AM) richard.barnes: A particular SLP associated with emergency services
(07:05:06 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: What's different in the emergency case?
(07:05:13 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Nothing, it's just another SLP
(07:06:08 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom/Nistal: Trust model is different
(07:06:19 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: So it's just an SLP that gets access to the terminal when others wouldn't?
(07:06:22 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Yes
(07:06:44 AM) linsner left the room.
(07:07:10 AM) richard.barnes: SIPLOC intended to be a SIP interface to access location
(07:07:25 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: So you're thinking that it's like the IETF presence mechanism
(07:07:26 AM) richard.barnes: ?
(07:07:31 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: It will be similar
(07:07:37 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Similar?
(07:08:02 AM) richard.barnes: In my company, we will have a single IMS core with a single presence service
(07:10:17 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: IETF already has a mature mechanism for requesting location over SIP, so this should mostly be a copy/paste/reference
(07:10:30 AM) richard.barnes: Please engage us to make sure we do as little extra work as possible
(07:10:50 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: We're not the GEOPRIV chairs, but we pass this on to him to get all the liaisons in place
(07:11:05 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: The location conveyance capability in SIP already covers more than you can do with MLP
(07:11:30 AM) richard.barnes: If this is an exercise to tunnel MLP through SIP, then it's not particularly useful
(07:11:41 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Do you know the name of the Ericsson person leading this?
(07:11:55 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Yes, but can't spell it
(07:12:08 AM) richard.barnes: Global location was just approved as a work item
(07:12:47 AM) richard.barnes: Front end to abstract over positioning technologies
(07:13:40 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Think the approach we take within IETF and elsewhere is that you have a LIS that looks after the access network & user and it would advertise various things to the presence server
(07:14:25 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: We're going to have an IMS core, and there's going to be all sorts of access networks coming in
(07:14:57 AM) richard.barnes: There's not necessarily a visited network, devices are not necessarily SUPL-enabled
(07:15:32 AM) richard.barnes: Core is completely agnostic to access technology, beyond that they're IP-capable
(07:15:41 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: But there are access networks ...
(07:15:52 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: We have no idea what the access networks are
(07:16:45 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: Any time you want to get services with the core, you need to register with it
(07:18:08 AM) richard.barnes: Hannu: It's not a beauty contest between the different location mechanism
(07:18:30 AM) richard.barnes: If we can't count on this enabler being available in all devices, we can't rely on it in the general architecture
(07:18:53 AM) richard.barnes: Nistal: (drawing on the whiteboard)
(07:20:27 AM) linsner entered the room.
(07:21:15 AM) linsner: replaced OMA presentation
(07:21:42 AM) richard.barnes: (Hannes is taking a picture of the whiteboard)
(08:01:03 AM) richard.barnes entered the room.
(08:01:03 AM) SDO Emergency Services Workshop 2007
(08:01:04 AM) HannesTschofenig has set the topic to: 3rd Emergency Services Workshop
(08:01:08 AM) richard.barnes: (we broke for lunch a few minutes ago)
(08:01:21 AM) richard.barnes: (we're back now)
(08:05:40 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: John Chiaramonte on the USDoT NG9-1-1 program
(08:05:42 AM) richard.barnes: <>
(08:06:44 AM) richard.barnes: Now on slide 3
(08:07:28 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(08:08:18 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 5
(08:09:23 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(08:10:32 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 7
(08:12:51 AM) richard.barnes: (describing the diagram - all the stakeholders involved, how they connect)
(08:12:59 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 8
(08:13:18 AM) richard.barnes: Recognized early-on that we can't do everything that's involved in NG9-1-1
(08:13:43 AM) richard.barnes: Focus on access methods, routing, communication with PSAPs
(08:13:58 AM) richard.barnes: not concerned with more advanced cases, like 3rd-party call centers, telematics, etc
(08:14:06 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 9
(08:14:15 AM) richard.barnes: 2yr project, ~45% done at this point
(08:14:21 AM) richard.barnes: Just starting task 3
(08:15:21 AM) richard.barnes: task 3 will run through Q208
(08:15:26 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 10
(08:16:44 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 11
(08:18:51 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 12 -- last slide
(08:18:59 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: How far along are you?
(08:19:15 AM) richard.barnes: John: Prelim. Design review just happened, Critical design review soon
(08:19:26 AM) richard.barnes: (Results will be published on the DOT website)
(08:19:34 AM) richard.barnes: Soon after, DOT will select participating PSAPs
(08:20:02 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: We will be very interested in feedback on our protocols, some of which seem to be in scope
(08:20:10 AM) richard.barnes: Is there a plan to make some of this experience available?
(08:20:24 AM) richard.barnes: Or, maybe to do some interoperability tests?
(08:20:31 AM) richard.barnes: e.g., with some LoST implementations?
(08:20:56 AM) richard.barnes: John: Can't show the architecture, since it hasn't been cleared, but it makes a lot of use of LoST
(08:21:11 AM) richard.barnes: Definitely a chance for SDO stakeholders to participate
(08:21:28 AM) richard.barnes: We're going to publish our results -- DOT is looking to share this with people
(08:21:53 AM) richard.barnes: E.g., even though DOT is US-focused, there's nothing US-specific about our proof-of-concept
(08:22:06 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Do you plan to make the implementation code public?
(08:22:12 AM) richard.barnes: John: Don't know. Assume so.
(08:22:44 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: As someone who's involved in this ....
(08:23:01 AM) richard.barnes: I've been asked by some people whether this is going to generate some presumed "this is the way to do it"
(08:23:24 AM) richard.barnes: Don't think that's the case. This is definitely a short term effort to test out concepts that the SDOs are producing
(08:23:42 AM) richard.barnes: The analysis so far is more conceptual than literal
(08:24:04 AM) richard.barnes: Some assumptions might change how we need to do things
(08:24:17 AM) richard.barnes: Design necessarily focuses on high-priority items
(08:24:36 AM) richard.barnes: 300-400 detailed requirements, 50% PoC requriements
(08:25:08 AM) richard.barnes: Won't be deployable, at least in the sense that it must replicate or improve on current E9-1-1
(08:25:56 AM) richard.barnes: Puts some emphasis on what can be done
(08:26:12 AM) richard.barnes: Hopefully will provide the disbelievers some evidence that this can happen
(08:26:34 AM) richard.barnes: This effort is very supportive of our overall objective
(08:26:48 AM) richard.barnes: John: We've always characterized this as a framework, not a blueprint
(08:27:37 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: This will probably be a hot topic at NENA's next meeting
(08:28:23 AM) richard.barnes: John: Linda/Laurie would be glad to provide gov't perspective
(08:28:32 AM) richard.barnes: ... and that's all for John
(08:28:53 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Christian Militeau on ATIS-ESIF
(08:28:54 AM) richard.barnes:
(08:29:00 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 1
(08:29:44 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 2
(08:30:12 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(08:30:17 AM) richard.barnes: oops, Slide 3
(08:31:03 AM) richard.barnes: ESIF was asked to look at requirements of FCC & other government mandates
(08:31:08 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(08:31:50 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 5
(08:34:38 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(08:34:46 AM) richard.barnes: This is the V0 interface in NENA i2
(08:35:57 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 7
(08:37:24 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 8
(08:37:28 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 9
(08:39:12 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 10
(08:40:05 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 11
(08:40:15 AM) richard.barnes: More details about current activities
(08:41:43 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 12
(08:42:49 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 13
(08:43:13 AM) richard.barnes: Top sub-bullet to be addressed in 3GPP Release 8
(08:43:33 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 14 -- last slide
(08:45:16 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: In your discussion of location acquisition protocols (slide 6), it seems like it's related to what Jim spoke about
(08:45:24 AM) richard.barnes: Can you summarize your conclusions there?
(08:46:12 AM) richard.barnes: Christian: Looking at the V0 interface in NENA i2, asked to recommend a protocol for that interface. Recommendation was to use HELD.
(08:46:53 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Have you come to some intermediate conclusions about location determination?
(08:47:08 AM) richard.barnes: Christian: Too soon. Should have stage 1 by end of 1Q08
(08:47:41 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: This recent EU (CGALIES?) report seems similar
(08:48:29 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Olivier Paul-Morandini on EENA
(08:48:30 AM) richard.barnes:
(08:48:42 AM) richard.barnes: Early warning systems
(08:48:54 AM) richard.barnes: Slide: EWS: 2 Componants
(08:49:50 AM) richard.barnes: Slide: EENA's actions for EWS
(08:50:01 AM) richard.barnes: EENA is primarily dealing at a political level
(08:51:29 AM) richard.barnes: CHORIST project harmonizes early warning systems
(08:52:27 AM) richard.barnes: There are existing EWS between authorities, but none to communicate to citizens
(08:53:00 AM) richard.barnes: Getting the need into an official report makes it easier to make it a priority politically
(08:53:33 AM) richard.barnes: Next year, there will be a European 1-1-2 day
(08:54:11 AM) richard.barnes: Lots of attention from EP on emergency services right now
(08:54:39 AM) richard.barnes: Slide: Agenda
(08:56:06 AM) richard.barnes: Should have a lot of official delegates from MSs' emergency services at the 1-1-2 day
(08:56:26 AM) richard.barnes: This group is doing a good job, but it needs to be translated to the MEPs
(08:56:48 AM) richard.barnes: They don't understand acronyms, but they understand citizen requirements
(08:58:27 AM) richard.barnes: Looking for folks to sign up to the EENA advisory board
(08:59:46 AM) richard.barnes: Mr. van Gaever has this concept of "subsidiarity", but that can be an excuse for MSs not to do anything
(09:00:02 AM) richard.barnes: In this case, though, we have grassroots support, people ready to move
(09:02:08 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Since this is largely a national issue, maybe it would be more effective to lobby national parliaments
(09:02:18 AM) richard.barnes: targeting those who don't implement 1-1-2 or those who have several numbers
(09:02:53 AM) richard.barnes: The incumbent operators probably have a lot more influence with the regulators, and they're probably pushing against the implementation of 1-1-2
(09:03:36 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: We're not going to take a stance on other emergency numbers.
(09:03:49 AM) richard.barnes: The important thing is that all 1-1-2 calls are answered and handled properly
(09:03:58 AM) richard.barnes: That give people the incentive to know it and use it
(09:04:30 AM) richard.barnes: Responders look at 1-1-2 as a trojan horse
(09:04:44 AM) richard.barnes: They're dealing with it because they have to
(09:05:06 AM) richard.barnes: Increasing mobility of people within Europe increases the need for 1-1-2
(09:05:21 AM) richard.barnes: If we can educate people about 1-1-2, false calls will go down
(09:05:48 AM) richard.barnes: A study showed that 1-1-2 calls sometimes go 23 rings and then go to an answering machine
(09:06:01 AM) richard.barnes: Total intervention time is up to 3hr
(09:06:20 AM) richard.barnes: Price: Agree with almost all of what you say.
(09:06:34 AM) richard.barnes: Think the next thing Europeans want is to be answered in their own language
(09:06:57 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: This is already a reality in reality
(09:07:22 AM) richard.barnes: In London, emergency calls are answered in 170 languages; AmEx always takes your call in your language
(09:08:04 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Question on the agenda slide
(09:08:20 AM) richard.barnes: You said you would like to organize PSAPs in Europe, kind of like NENA in the US
(09:08:38 AM) richard.barnes: NENA doesn't just have PSAPs, it also has a lot of technical work, and has for a long time
(09:08:56 AM) richard.barnes: You're probably 5 years late, technically
(09:10:02 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: EC is not in a position to force MSs to respond to quality criteria for emergency services
(09:10:11 AM) richard.barnes: A call from PSAPs would be much harder to resist
(09:10:51 AM) richard.barnes: Price: It's a good objective, but pressure on the major operators in the "offending" MSs and their regulators is likely to get a better result faster
(09:11:18 AM) richard.barnes: Hannes: We tried to have someone here from CHORIST. Do you know more details about what they do?
(09:11:42 AM) richard.barnes: Olivier: They will issue technical specs; EENA's role is to get information and collect citizen requirements
(09:12:44 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Here's another citizen requirement: You want a warning for someone related to you.
(09:12:57 AM) richard.barnes: I want to know when the earthquake is going to hit my daughter, not just me
(09:14:45 AM) richard.barnes: ???: There is another aspect, which is mobilizing public safety users, planners
(09:15:02 AM) richard.barnes: there we have had a challenge, in that the regional authorities have not been targeted
(09:15:19 AM) jchiaramonte: ?? Egil Bovim
(09:16:14 AM) jchiaramonte: Olivier is done
(09:16:34 AM) jchiaramonte: Roger Hixson - NENA presentation
(09:17:32 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - all presentations are available on the Wiki page - Hannu's presentation from yesterday has been updated to include the statistics slide from Switzerland
(09:17:44 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson starting
(09:18:04 AM) jchiaramonte: Orientation and status of NENA in North America
(09:18:14 AM) jchiaramonte: Current NENA actions
(09:18:26 AM) jchiaramonte: not just NG9-1-1, but NG Emergency Comms in general
(09:19:32 AM) jchiaramonte: "plug & play" capabilities for new NG9-1-1 services - easily integrate devices that meet standards into NG9-1-1
(09:20:34 AM) jchiaramonte: ??? - any device that can meet IP standards - should they make an emergency call?
(09:20:57 AM) JamesWinterbottom entered the room.
(09:21:02 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson - if the device is a telecommunications device - it should be able to make an emergency call
(09:21:18 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - services are announced that can't make an emergency call
(09:22:01 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - example: a carrier announced a new service - give a cell phone to a child w/whitelist (only those whitelisted could call child) - 911 could not call the phone
(09:22:34 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - complete disaster - but it's happening weekly - need to be proactive - concerted effort
(09:23:09 AM) jchiaramonte: if you build a new application or service or device or sensor network - you may have emergency call / notification requirements that you must meet
(09:23:24 AM) jchiaramonte: responders need to know about it and get input so it can be better handled
(09:24:10 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson - past - 911 didn't know about a new device + no standards = one-offs all the time / proprietary interfaces
(09:24:31 AM) jchiaramonte: need to make it so easy for new technology purveyors so they can just do it
(09:24:55 AM) jchiaramonte: do it voluntarily - easy to do - no hassle - people will tend to do it (versus being forced into it by regulators)
(09:25:17 AM) jchiaramonte: anyone that comes up with a new service can develop it to a standard and it will be seamless to the end user
(09:25:31 AM) jchiaramonte: more than just PSAPs, although concentrating on PSAP
(09:26:13 AM) jchiaramonte: On NENA website - NG911 project area - what level each state is using IP networking
(09:26:25 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - Project Activity Relationships
(09:26:34 AM) jchiaramonte: FPP = Future Path Plan
(09:27:17 AM) jchiaramonte: 2001 - FPP - still applicable today
(09:28:07 AM) jchiaramonte: NG Partner Project - initiated in 2004 - need to deal with technical / operations, vendors, regulators, etc.
(09:28:32 AM) jchiaramonte: NENA Development Status
(09:29:39 AM) jchiaramonte: open architecture is also open competition - system operations issues that must be handled by system integrators - development work still needs to be done to assist the 911 authorities
(09:30:20 AM) jchiaramonte: staged feature introduction
(09:30:48 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - NENA Interactions
(09:31:15 AM) jchiaramonte: IETF - Several people in the room help lead NENA groups
(09:31:31 AM) jchiaramonte: NENA attends the SDO meetings - coordination
(09:31:42 AM) jchiaramonte: other public safety groups
(09:31:59 AM) jchiaramonte: NANSA = National Association of Nine-one-one State Administrators
(09:32:21 AM) jchiaramonte: APCO - Association of Public Safety Communications Officials
(09:32:35 AM) jchiaramonte: APCO - more operations versus NENA - development
(09:32:41 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - Issues
(09:34:54 AM) jchiaramonte: one of the problems with VoIP and selective routers = physical connection to all the selective routers
(09:35:20 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - Standards
(09:35:49 AM) jchiaramonte: standards development - all volunteer work
(09:37:13 AM) linsner: Roger - we don't want another cellular experience
(09:39:21 AM) linsner: Roger - Canada has a more 'controlled' 911 environment
(09:42:26 AM) linsner: Starting Gunnar's preso...
(09:42:34 AM) linsner: check the wiki page for the slides
(09:44:00 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - brief trial with multimedia calls
(09:45:07 AM) jchiaramonte: next slides - 3 media types - video
(09:45:52 AM) jchiaramonte: important for emergency services to see the user's environment and get the information from the interpreter
(09:46:58 AM) jchiaramonte: in Sweeden - 1/2 of the deaf population are using 3G videophones - but frame rate is low, delay, blurry
(09:47:11 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - with all the problems - can you still accurately communicate?
(09:47:17 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - yes
(09:47:36 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - faster than SMS, but is acceptable for now
(09:47:57 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - video support
(09:48:15 AM) jchiaramonte: movie
(09:48:43 AM) jchiaramonte: demonstrating how each user used the system
(09:49:23 AM) jchiaramonte: 3G - SIP "total converstation"
(09:50:28 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - how to get the movie files?
(09:50:39 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - need to reconfigure the wiki, but will post
(09:50:45 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - what did the psap people think?
(09:50:54 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - liked it
(09:51:22 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - background was equally important
(09:51:27 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - need to publish that
(09:51:34 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - real time text
(09:52:37 AM) jchiaramonte: simultaneous voice / text is possible
(09:52:55 AM) jchiaramonte: "total conversation" real time text + video
(09:53:45 AM) jchiaramonte: PSAP personnel appreciated the interpreter in a real time text conversation
(09:54:01 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - demonstration of real time text
(09:54:10 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - speech-to-speech
(09:54:26 AM) jchiaramonte: Marshall - go back to last slide
(09:55:11 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - text in 2 columns for readibility
(09:55:19 AM) jchiaramonte: outgoing - char by char
(09:55:58 AM) jchiaramonte: full text between caller and the relay service
(09:56:06 AM) jchiaramonte: voice between relay and PSAP
(09:56:21 AM) jchiaramonte: Marshall - how does the PSAP see text?
(09:56:28 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - all text is side-by-side
(09:56:43 AM) jchiaramonte: Chris (cisco) - is text being recorded?
(09:56:59 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - it would be in a PSAP - the video would need to be recorded
(09:57:07 AM) jchiaramonte: back to speech2speech
(09:57:40 AM) jchiaramonte: speech2speech service can assist when the PSAP is having difficulty understanding a speech-impaired individual
(09:57:45 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - trial conclusions
(09:58:52 AM) jchiaramonte: 3G - needed to restrict what was seen on the caller's phone - interpreter was shown, not the PSAP call taker
(09:59:07 AM) jchiaramonte: screen is already very small - no need for the caller to see the psap
(10:00:22 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - how should this best be done? should the call go direct to the call center and them to invoke the interpreter or should go to the interpreter first then psap
(10:00:42 AM) jchiaramonte: (caller -> psap -> relay vs. caller -> relay -> psap)
(10:00:57 AM) jchiaramonte: Marshall - caller to conference that invites relay
(10:01:04 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - caller direct function
(10:01:32 AM) jchiaramonte: caller to conference center to psap / interpreter
(10:01:38 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - 3GPP
(10:02:12 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - current IMS systems don't do that
(10:02:51 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson - glad brian likes that - propsed that in the usdot project 6-7 weeks ago
(10:03:03 AM) jchiaramonte: based on the call type, automatically invokes the conference
(10:03:18 AM) jchiaramonte: rosen - network must recognize this
(10:03:30 AM) jchiaramonte: rosen - get it to work with all calls
(10:04:07 AM) jchiaramonte: rosen - calls routed directly to the psap and have the psap establish the conference
(10:04:23 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - trial participants liked it too
(10:05:00 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - trial conclusions (cont.)
(10:06:04 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - standardization
(10:06:54 AM) jchiaramonte: Bovim - speech impairment principal - could also apply to different languages
(10:07:26 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - yes - it's language interpretation - includes way to include interpreters in a similar manner - caller preferences
(10:08:23 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - standardization IETF
(10:09:06 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - standardization 3GPP
(10:09:44 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - standardization ETSI
(10:10:36 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - standardization ITU-T Multimedia
(10:11:18 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - standardization ITU-T NGN
(10:11:50 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - standardization ITU-T NGN cont.
(10:12:24 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - emergency standardization in ITU-T NGN
(10:12:34 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - next steps for standardization
(10:13:38 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - further needs
(10:14:24 AM) jchiaramonte: sip is not the only way - web sites are currently offering real-time texting capabilities - perhaps providing access via SIP gateways
(10:14:35 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - further needs cont.
(10:15:17 AM) jchiaramonte: next slide - contact info
(10:16:12 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - ITU-T: citizen to authority work? invited them to the first workshop, but they were only working on authority to citizen
(10:16:34 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - laid out in NGN document
(10:16:52 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - more protocol
(10:17:03 AM) jchiaramonte: Gunnar - more reminders than requirements
(10:17:27 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - Hannu is leaving, so ....
(10:17:51 AM) jchiaramonte: Lisner - want to review recommendations that came out from yesterday
(10:18:32 AM) jchiaramonte: workshop has been internally focused - now might be the time to make some outward facing statements
(10:18:47 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu takes podium
(10:19:17 AM) jchiaramonte: Bovim - what is the purpose? some participants may need to share these statements with their individual organizations
(10:19:36 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - this is not an official organization - no standing
(10:19:54 AM) jchiaramonte: Bovim - concerned about how this will be presented
(10:20:46 AM) jchiaramonte: Bovim - collegues might be concerned about things being said / attributed to organizations versus individuals
(10:21:18 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - community of people sharing information - not making any statements about any organization
(10:21:45 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - similarly can't speak for IETF, ATIS, EMTEL, etc....
(10:22:26 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - mistake on the 1st workshop - no record of the discussions - no minutes - people left with different impressions of what happened / what was said - trying to learn from that experience
(10:23:02 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - looking for feedback - if there are any problems - you will receive an updated presentation at no further charge
(10:23:46 AM) jchiaramonte: want to group NENA, EENA, EU Commission into a generic group
(10:24:09 AM) jchiaramonte: Barnes - change organization to people
(10:24:28 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - some are representatives of organizations
(10:26:20 AM) jchiaramonte: ?? experts coming from various organization
(10:27:11 AM) jchiaramonte: Worstell - idea of the 1st workshop - get people together from various SDOs to see what they were doing / was there overlap / how to coordinate overlapping efforts
(10:27:58 AM) jchiaramonte: Worstell - here to take back information to my SDO - not looking to make any statements from this workshop - but "we need to be able to interface with these things going forward"
(10:28:05 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - do we need this document?
(10:28:30 AM) jchiaramonte: Worstell - ok to put together as a reference - this is what we had talked about within this group versus "we all adopt this"
(10:28:37 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - agreed
(10:29:09 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - how to scope the document without leading people astray
(10:29:37 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - need to list panelists?
(10:30:16 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - has list of all organizations that provided a status update
(10:32:09 AM) jchiaramonte: Bovim - concern about indication of "expert opinion"
(10:32:32 AM) jchiaramonte: Price - statements are acceptable - consensus
(10:32:59 AM) jchiaramonte: opinions of members of the groups
(10:33:27 AM) jchiaramonte: ?? change recommendations to observations
(10:33:50 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - any further disclaimer? "we are not responsible for what we are recommending"
(10:34:32 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - title, comments, recommendations
(10:35:26 AM) jchiaramonte: Marshall - is it a recommendation of the group or a recommendation of the workshop
(10:36:20 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - all participants were subscribed to a mailing list - automatically unless you want to be off the list
(10:37:00 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - are these ALL the topics recorded?
(10:37:10 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu et all - all from the Panel
(10:37:17 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - want to add lots more
(10:37:57 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - for example - the whole subject of emergency access - clear: simultaneous video at PSAP for video relay is important
(10:38:28 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - need to work with WiMAX and the IETF / OMA work
(10:38:37 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - are all outputs / takeaways
(10:39:00 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - (these) notes are so explicitedly stated
(10:39:10 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - "doesn't matter to me"
(10:39:38 AM) jchiaramonte: Rosen - I know what to take back
(10:40:19 AM) jchiaramonte: Stark - conern about emergency calls w/o IP connectivity
(10:40:46 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - concern about that
(10:41:17 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - don't bring me solutions - i.e. cell phone in the stadium - what is the requirement? make an emergency call
(10:41:29 AM) jchiaramonte: Stark - concern about SIP proxy / SIP sniffing
(10:41:42 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - how to make it clearer?
(10:41:51 AM) jchiaramonte: Stark - "Yo regulators, don't..."
(10:44:22 AM) jchiaramonte: Hixson - emergency calls with keylock on - thought it was an "opt in" versus a mandate to always support
(10:44:46 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - making changes
(10:46:00 AM) jchiaramonte: Price - item #1 - change order of bullets - change recommendation - manufacturers free to develop products that give users the ability to opt in to the feature
(10:47:34 AM) jchiaramonte: remove recommendation sub bullet
(10:49:05 AM) jchiaramonte: ??? don't follow bullet 2
(10:49:53 AM) jchiaramonte: Stark - 3GPP applies to I-WLAN, but not a home LAN
(10:53:02 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannes - change 4th bullet - "lack of subscription"
(10:54:03 AM) jchiaramonte: McCann - possibly missing IMS emergency call over Internet
(10:54:26 AM) jchiaramonte: McCann - is there a use case for that or is that out of scope?
(10:55:14 AM) jchiaramonte: Stark - it's a 3GPP issue - Christian Mileteau - ESIF did liase to 3GPP
(10:55:56 AM) jchiaramonte: Militeau - use case Internet access network with IMS call network
(10:56:17 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - probably need a diagram
(10:56:50 AM) jchiaramonte: Winterbottom - ATIS can provide input to use case
(10:57:01 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - action point - collect single presentation of the use cases
(10:57:35 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - would help ensure the intention of the group
(10:58:10 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - WLAN/SIP capable device - would you have different use cases?
(10:58:32 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - could be differnet stacks w/different profiles or the same stack
(11:00:13 AM) jchiaramonte: Bovim - "a reduction of emergency numbers would be an advantage"
(11:01:48 AM) jchiaramonte: Hannu - not looking to decrease to a single emergency number
(11:03:39 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - taking a >3< minute break
(11:04:27 AM) jchiaramonte: Linsner - after break - rapid fire review on authority to citizen topics
(11:05:08 AM) jchiaramonte: :: round of applause for Laura Liess - Deutsche Telekom/T-Systems for dinner / tour last night ::
(11:17:20 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Leopold Murhammer on EMTEL work on Early warning
(11:17:47 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(11:17:54 AM) richard.barnes: General EMTEL picture
(11:18:07 AM) richard.barnes:
(11:18:27 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 5
(11:18:47 AM) richard.barnes: Objective: To reach the citizen independent of their location
(11:19:09 AM) richard.barnes: Disseminate to a large number of individuals within the affected area
(11:19:28 AM) richard.barnes: Oops, wrong slides, please see
(11:19:50 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(11:20:13 AM) richard.barnes: Need to support very dense areas and very sparse areas
(11:20:45 AM) richard.barnes: Different locations on earth have different requirements for how fast alerts have to get out
(11:21:16 AM) richard.barnes: Japan has very tight requirements for earthquakes; Europe has more relaxed needs
(11:21:26 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Where did these numbers come from?
(11:21:45 AM) richard.barnes: Was it "this is what we need"? or "this is what the technology can do"?
(11:22:17 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: Didn't want to have numbers we couldn't meet.
(11:22:47 AM) richard.barnes: Price: It's also important that things should be measurable. In this case, that's not really very practical
(11:23:09 AM) richard.barnes: Chiaramonte: What are the numbers we're talking about? 1000? 1000000?
(11:23:17 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: Millions, even
(11:23:26 AM) richard.barnes: Chiaramonte: Bandwidth is going to run out
(11:24:28 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Technology exists to address that issue. Certain protocols can do broadcast (like SMS)
(11:24:52 AM) richard.barnes: It is practical to build systems that notify millions of people in minutes, as long as that's a long term goal
(11:25:18 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: Also, didn't specify a specific technology
(11:26:06 AM) richard.barnes: Price: You can build systems to do almost anything, but you have to look at cost-effectiveness as well
(11:26:18 AM) richard.barnes: How far do we go with these systems?
(11:26:40 AM) richard.barnes: Sixty years ago, we had air-raid sirens, and they were very effective
(11:27:17 AM) richard.barnes: Low-tech media might be cheapest and most effective
(11:27:37 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 7
(11:28:04 AM) richard.barnes: With events like sporting events, you can pre-stage messages for delivery
(11:29:14 AM) linsner left the room.
(11:29:14 AM) linsner entered the room.
(11:29:51 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 8
(11:30:56 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 9
(11:31:51 AM) richard.barnes: Opt-in and opt-out are not mentioned in ETSI documents
(11:32:05 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: so you just assume everyone gets it, there's no opt-out?
(11:32:21 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: It's not a mandatory either way. Possible that a handset supports opt-out.
(11:32:48 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 10
(11:33:00 AM) richard.barnes: ETSI doesn't specify a delivery technology
(11:33:07 AM) richard.barnes: It sets evaluation criteria
(11:33:24 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 11
(11:33:25 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 12
(11:33:36 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Did you consider the needs of disabled people?
(11:33:47 AM) richard.barnes: [ 4th bullet on Slide 7 ]
(11:34:09 AM) richard.barnes: Have you thought about the "alerts for where my daughter is" case?
(11:34:39 AM) richard.barnes: Bovim: We've had some discussions on that point
(11:35:14 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: If you had a reasonable amount of bandwidth, you could broadcast alerts for a much larger area to each endpoint and filter at the endpoint
(11:35:37 AM) richard.barnes: You could have broadcast within the area and subscribe/notify outside the area
(11:35:45 AM) richard.barnes: there are many ways to do it if it's a requirement
(11:36:04 AM) richard.barnes: When you think about what people want to see, that seems like it would be pretty high on the list
(11:36:19 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: Think about that more as a commercial service; not critical to saving lives
(11:36:58 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: If there's something at the school, and I need to go pick up my child, then I'm not in the area, but I am impacted by the emergency
(11:37:20 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: That's a good example. Several of us are interested in making systems like that possible
(11:37:30 AM) richard.barnes: Murhammer: It's not in the document, what can I say?
(11:38:04 AM) richard.barnes: Bovim: My childrens' school actually does keep my information and will call me here. There are existing solutions
(11:38:31 AM) richard.barnes: Linsner: In your case, that's a unicast thing; there should be a broadcast mechanism as well
(11:39:02 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: Like to do these things in ways that are (a) commercially viable, and (b) useful for non-catastrophic events
(11:39:28 AM) richard.barnes: e.g., picking kids up before a snowstorm would be a good use of the mechanism
(11:39:40 AM) richard.barnes: e.g., you might pay to know if the stock market drops 20%
(11:39:47 AM) richard.barnes: all with the same mechanism
(11:40:06 AM) richard.barnes: those usages don't have the geographic characteristics, but otherwise it's the same
(11:41:40 AM) richard.barnes: Hixson: Assuming it's not the case, I encourage you NOT to call this "reverse 1-1-2"
(11:42:42 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Brian Rosen on EDXL and CAP
(11:43:05 AM) richard.barnes: Standards for agency-to-agency use, but also to be used for agency-to-individual use
(11:43:21 AM) richard.barnes:
(11:43:23 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 2
(11:44:01 AM) richard.barnes: Broad variety of experts in the Disaster Management Group in US DHS
(11:44:25 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 3
(11:44:43 AM) richard.barnes: Interesting thing here is the Distribution Element
(11:44:45 AM) richard.barnes: (DE)
(11:45:17 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 4
(11:45:20 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 5
(11:46:03 AM) richard.barnes: Barnes: The Distribution Element is what?
(11:46:08 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: XML data structure
(11:46:17 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(11:46:37 AM) richard.barnes: CAP is how one agency tells another that something important has occurred
(11:46:50 AM) richard.barnes: Should be that CAP is the content of an EDXL message; it's headed that way
(11:46:55 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 7
(11:47:00 AM) richard.barnes: Example of CAP
(11:47:21 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 8
(11:47:54 AM) richard.barnes: no standard transports for CAP
(11:48:02 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 9
(11:48:15 AM) richard.barnes: Another usage of CAP
(11:48:34 AM) richard.barnes: Not just a single message, a whole sequence
(11:48:38 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 10
(11:48:55 AM) richard.barnes: Message identifies a resource that has a status
(11:49:09 AM) richard.barnes: (lots of steps in negotiation)
(11:49:36 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 12
(11:50:00 AM) richard.barnes: Messages to deal with cost
(11:50:27 AM) richard.barnes: Developed based on examining emergency communications, paperwork
(11:50:31 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 13
(11:50:40 AM) richard.barnes: HAVE is used for hospital management
(11:51:00 AM) richard.barnes: Just description, doesn't have all the request/negotiation semantics
(11:51:38 AM) richard.barnes: The US Gov't has mandated CAP to be used in the early warning system, which is going to be extended to mobile phones
(11:51:46 AM) richard.barnes: the protocol used between the agency and the carriers is CAP
(11:52:05 AM) richard.barnes: That's really useful because it gives us a lot of standardized metadata
(11:52:55 AM) richard.barnes: Stark: Would there be appropriate work to do SIP conveyance of CAP?
(11:53:03 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: All you need is SIP events
(11:53:44 AM) richard.barnes: ???: What's the front end?
(11:53:51 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: This is a back-end thing
(11:54:26 AM) richard.barnes: You need a mechanism for doing location-based routing
(11:54:29 AM) richard.barnes: Lots of ways to do that
(11:54:49 AM) richard.barnes: Currently, there's a mechanism called EPAD for finding people
(11:54:58 AM) richard.barnes: Notionally, that would trigger the push out of the SIP message
(11:55:23 AM) jchiaramonte: link: (Emerency Provider Access Database)
(11:55:31 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Is there a way to publish that this event is going to occur to this "CAP server" ?
(11:55:39 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: That's basically what the document says
(11:55:46 AM) richard.barnes: But this whole thing needs more thought
(11:56:08 AM) richard.barnes: E.g., you might think of using LoST to figure out which agencies generate such messages within a geographic area
(11:56:41 AM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: I was thinking about, e.g., sensors publishing out alerts that would be disseminated to the right people by the server
(11:56:56 AM) richard.barnes: Rosen: That's a problem that needs to be worked. Right now, that's a very proprietary thing.
(11:57:45 AM) richard.barnes: Different sensor vendors have completely different ways of getting data back to the emergency management centers
(11:59:20 AM) richard.barnes: Next up: Hannes Tschofenig on Architectural challenges
(11:59:29 AM) richard.barnes:
(11:59:33 AM) richard.barnes: Slide 3
(12:00:02 PM) richard.barnes: In the discussion, we tried to differentiate a few different types of entities
(12:00:50 PM) richard.barnes: opt-in approach means you need to find which forwarders will send you messages
(12:01:50 PM) richard.barnes: Slide 5
(12:02:00 PM) richard.barnes: Different types of alerts
(12:05:36 PM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: One thing I hear from customers is "I'd pay for traffic warnings". That would be a useful commercial service in the "Local events of modest urgency" category
(12:06:22 PM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(12:07:53 PM) richard.barnes: Rosen: I would prefer that you never talk about "immediate human consumption (plaintext)", because plaintext is very context dependent
(12:08:15 PM) richard.barnes: Very frequent mismatch: Hearing/visually impaired, or language barriers
(12:08:42 PM) richard.barnes: Hannes:
(12:09:52 PM) richard.barnes: Slide 8
(12:10:20 PM) richard.barnes: GeoRSS is an OGC product -- RSS feeds tagged with location information and CAP payloads
(12:12:24 PM) richard.barnes: Bovim: This service is available on a commercial basis -- you can subscribe to information on police road blocks and speed checks
(12:12:30 PM) richard.barnes: Next up: Steve McCann on IEEE Emergency Warning
(12:12:43 PM) richard.barnes:
(12:12:45 PM) richard.barnes: Slide 6
(12:12:51 PM) JamesWinterbottom left the room.
(12:13:50 PM) richard.barnes: Just setting a bit in the AP advertisement, probably go ahead and put this through
(12:15:02 PM) richard.barnes: Next up: Marc and Hannes with workshop overview
(12:15:55 PM) wusolomon left the room.
(12:16:04 PM) richard.barnes: Q: Was this about right?
(12:16:13 PM) richard.barnes: What should we do different next time?
(12:16:52 PM) richard.barnes: Hixson: Thought it was a good level of content. If we're going to get together to say what's going on in SDO work, there should be some sort of documentation of where the SDOs stand
(12:17:05 PM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Need to put some context around that, but yes.
(12:18:03 PM) richard.barnes: Marshall: Thought the meeting was excellent, and very fast-paced. Depending on what people want to do in the future, maybe we want to allocate more time.
(12:18:12 PM) richard.barnes: [ maybe in parallel ]
(12:18:50 PM) richard.barnes: Price: This is my first, and I hope it won't be the last. Very useful.
(12:19:20 PM) richard.barnes: However, there's been no "aggression"
(12:19:38 PM) richard.barnes: [ wait, strike "however" from the previous line ]
(12:19:56 PM) richard.barnes: Linsner: Next one would be in April sometime
(12:21:02 PM) richard.barnes: Lonvick: The idea came up last night: Should this group form some sort of real organization?
(12:21:56 PM) richard.barnes: Official standing? Liability?
(12:22:51 PM) richard.barnes: [ mind map to be published -- I'll just relay discussion ]
(12:25:35 PM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: We've had good representation from regulators and *individuals* vs company perspectives
(12:25:53 PM) richard.barnes: We should try to keep that focus, and keep company perspectives out of this
(12:26:01 PM) richard.barnes: Chris:
(12:27:17 PM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: Maybe we want to put together "cookbook"s for how to put together things from different SDOs
(12:27:45 PM) richard.barnes: Linsner: TIA is trying to do that in a lot of casese
(12:28:00 PM) richard.barnes: Rosen: I hope we don't get into writing documents, but wikis are pretty useful
(12:28:23 PM) richard.barnes: Maybe we could have some sort of standardized report form to gather information on documents by participating SDOs
(12:28:40 PM) richard.barnes: Just gather a lot of pointers, don't want to write new documents
(12:29:15 PM) richard.barnes: Maybe along with membership we want to discuss fee structure, other administration
(12:29:24 PM) richard.barnes: [ last line was Marshall ]
(12:29:30 PM) richard.barnes: Liess: Don't make it too heavy
(12:30:04 PM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Manfred gave me an idea -- obviously it's impossible to find a meeting date that works with everybody, and sometimes you want to share something in between
(12:30:12 PM) richard.barnes: So producing something like a podcast might be useful
(12:31:12 PM) richard.barnes: Linsner: We're just throwing this stuff out. I don't think any of us have any problem continuing informally as we have.
(12:31:24 PM) richard.barnes: We can always add some more tools, wiki, matrix, etc.
(12:32:06 PM) richard.barnes: As far as meeting venues, Asia might be pretty challenging since we don't know much about what's going on
(12:32:13 PM) richard.barnes: [ that was Hannes ]
(12:32:35 PM) richard.barnes: Hannes: In the US, there's obviously a lot established infrastructure; Europe is somewhere in between
(12:32:51 PM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom: We could probably do something in Australia
(12:34:16 PM) richard.barnes: Worstell: If we do move around to different locations like this, we get the regulators. Let's pick locations where we want to get regulators.
(12:34:39 PM) richard.barnes: A number of the SDOs are international organizations; we should see if they can help.
(12:34:55 PM) richard.barnes: I'd like to keep this like it is, a workshop where you can just express your ideas.
(12:35:02 PM) richard.barnes: Learned a lot, got a lot of links
(12:35:22 PM) richard.barnes: Like the idea of going where the regulators are.
(12:35:41 PM) richard.barnes: Hannes: Agree. That's a lot of why we're in Brussels
(12:36:28 PM) richard.barnes: McCann: I had some inputs from Japan. There seems to be some interest forming in Japanese vendors and SDOs, so maybe something in Japan/Singapore?
(12:36:56 PM) richard.barnes: Stark: Seen significant drop-off in attendance in other organizations when you go to Asia
(12:37:24 PM) richard.barnes: Linsner: We've had good participation the last two meetings; might not be the same in Asia.
(12:38:36 PM) richard.barnes: Winterbottom discussing logistics for dinner
(12:39:07 PM) richard.barnes: We are adjourned